1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

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stoves1234
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#1

Post by stoves1234 »

I was at a sporting goods store looking for some shot shells for the upcoming duck season. Of course I had to check out their stoves and lanterns, and I wasn't surprised to find just a dual fuel lantern and two burner stove. On the stove box I noticed a diagram showing a picture of a gallon can of CF being equal to 4.5 1 lb. bottles of propane. I thought that a gallon of CF weighs about 6.5 lbs., which means that weight-wise a little over 6 bottles of propane would be equal to the liquid fuel. Was that comparison on the stove box referring to how much of each fuel it takes to produce an equal amount of energy? Is propane more efficient than CF?
Don't be alarmed, I'm not considering selling all of my stoves and lanterns and switching to propane. I'm just a curious kind of guy. My propane use will continue to consist of using it to clean generators and remove 502 burner rings.
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#2

Post by Deanofid »

I wonder if Coleman is making a reference to the cost of fuel, rather than the energy. There is quite a bit more energy in liquid gasoline than in liquid propane. On the chart I checked, it didn't have a rating for naphtha (Coleman Fuel), but did for gasoline, and they are very similar.
The energy density list says propane has 26 microJoules per liter where gasoline has 34 mJ/liter. Quite a bit more energy dense for gas over propane. You will get more heat out of a gallon of CF than a gallon of propane. A quick estimate shows you will need 8 bottles of propane to equal one gallon of CF in heat.
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#3

Post by Deanofid »

Puffie40 wrote: I think it's supposed to be Megajoules.
Right! My goof. Darn medicated system. Big M, small m, M&Ms. One of them thangs. [wink]
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#4

Post by Scouter_Angus »

deanofid wrote:
Right! My goof. Darn medicated system. Big M, small m, M&Ms. One of them thangs. [wink]

You're the only country in the world not to use the metric system, but you are also the only country to send men to the moon and bring them back alive.[wink]
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#5

Post by Deanofid »

Angus, I don't use the metric system with efficiency, it's true. I can tell you a bunch of decimal equivalents for fractions, though! [rofl]
Everybody else uses it, but the US seems to do okay the good old way. What the heck. All measuring systems are random. Everyone else just happened to pick the one that is divisible by the easiest number(s). 1, 10, 100, etc. Represented by M's and K's and G's. You see how that worked out for me. [wink]
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#6

Post by kb0hae »

I seem to remember reading somewhere you can cook longer/more meals with a gallon of CF than with several (1 pound) propane canisters. Can't find that site again right now though. I know that I have cooked 3 meals per day for 3 people for at least 4 days on a full tank on my 425E tank without refilling it. Usually bacon and eggs for breakfast, various other things for lunch and supper, like hamburgers, tacos, etc... Also a pot of coffee in the morning for 2 out of three (I don't drink coffee). I wonder how many (1 pound) propane bottles that amount of cooking would take?
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#7

Post by Chucker »

Once you are able to measure to the 1/10,000th's of a inch and can split an atom, very little stands in your way.

For the everyday bloke like me, well I can get by with whatever you put in front of me most days.
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#8

Post by curtludwig »

A 1# propane can contains 1 quart of propane. A gallon of CF contains 4 quarts of CF, theres the conversion from the can. I wonder if the 1# cans aren't 1# any more. Like when you get a 20# refill from Blue Rhino and its really 15#...

Martin, 12 meals seems like a lot off a 425. I've run mine for about 3 hours making french fries on both burners before on a full tank before it went dry. That'd be 12x 15 minute meals which I suppose is possible but it'd be a stretch. I guess if you were only using one burner you'd get a bunch more time.

In my experience a 413 gives much more run time per tank than a 425.
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#9

Post by Deanofid »

curtludwig wrote: A 1# propane can contains 1 quart of propane. A gallon of CF contains 4 quarts of CF, theres the conversion from the can. .
This is correct by volume, but the energy density is very different. One gallon of liquid propane weighs 4.25 pounds, while one gallon of CF weighs 6.5 pounds. There is a lot more energy in that gallon of CF than in the gallon of propane. In other words, the liquid equivalents are far different than the heat producing properties.
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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#10

Post by hurricaner »

White Gas is 114,000 BTU'sper gallon
Propane has 91,000 BTU's per gallon
Propane weghs approx. 4.25 lbs per gallon

Small canisters are 16.4 oz, so it takes a little over 4 canisters to make a gallon of propane. The canisters contain approx 22,500 BTU's. If you devide that into 114,500 (BTU's in a gallon of Coleman fuel) you get 5.08 and that is where Coleman gets there number from. Note# Coleman used to say it took 5 canisters to equal a gallon of propane but they revised it at some point. This would mean that the BTU's in coleman fuel is lower than 114,500

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1 gallon CF= ? bottles of propane

#11

Post by cptuap »

Being the simple soul that I am, I've always looked at the 4.5 canisters to 1 gal. CF as approximate burn time. Seems to come close in approximation to stoves and lanterns in my world. Price of each fuel would determine the economical advantage of either and then there is the pros and cons of the environmental issues, waste disposal etc. Also there is the issue of energy expended pumping our Coleman friends and the additional maintenance. Oh shucks, this is getting too complicated. I'm just a simple soul.
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#12

Post by curtludwig »

I was camping with a group once, I'd brought my trusty 413E, another guy brought an Optimus propane. His wouldn't burn worth a hoot, it'd light but put out almost no heat while my 413E was busy making breakfast.
After I'd got done cooking breakfast I smacked the regulator from his on the table a couple times and it consented to pass gas and worked okay. I still wouldn't trust it, it was a crescent wrench and a screwdriver I can fix about any problems my 413 could have, if the regulator on a propane job quits yer up the creek...
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#13

Post by Deanofid »

cptuap wrote: Being the simple soul that I am, I've always looked at the 4.5 canisters to 1 gal. CF as approximate burn time. Seems to come close in approximation to stoves and lanterns in my world. Price of each fuel would determine the economical advantage of either and then there is the pros and cons of the environmental issues, waste disposal etc. Also there is the issue of energy expended pumping our Coleman friends and the additional maintenance. Oh shucks, this is getting too complicated. I'm just a simple soul.
Charlie, you can do a pretty simple test to see which fuel has the economic advantage. I've done this test, just to prove what I already thought I knew.
Starting with a new can of CF and five 1 lb bottles of propane, use a lantern like a 220 (any letter) for the CF and a lantern like a Coleman 5152 twin mantle for the propane. Both these lanterns were made to run two #21 mantles.

Fill the 220 and pump it as usual. Put a propane bottle on the propane lantern. Light the 220 and get it going well, adding air as you normally would. Right after you start the 220, light the propane lantern and run it at it's brightest, just like the CF lanterns run.
Each time one of the lanterns goes out, shut the other one off until you have either changed propane bottles, or refilled the fount of the 220, and start again. This test takes about a week, but the indisputable results are worth it if you really want to know which fuel gives the most bang for the buck.

(Spoiler, since I have done this.) After your 5 bottles of propane are run dry, you will still have a good mount of CF left. Enough to fill the 220 a couple more times.

Where I live, propane costs about $6 for the packages of two bottles. Sometimes a little less when on sale. That's a total of $15 for five propane bottles.
Coleman Fuel here runs about $14 per gallon. Cheaper than the five bottles of propane to begin with, plus after those bottles of propane are empty, you still have about 1½ quarts of CF left in the can. It's like free fuel after that, compared to propane.
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#14

Post by curtludwig »

I've played that game Dean and I got about the same results you did. The only wild card is those who can refill the propane cans. A propane fill around here is $16 for a 20# can, actually I'm getting CF cheaper than you too, I can buy Crown at my local TrueValue for $10 it less at Wally-World.

We've got a Mr. Heater Big Buddy at camp, 2x 1# propane cans last half a day on the low setting which is just right if its in the 40s outside. We've got maybe 10 cans that we refill, they only get about 3/4 full so you end up using 3 pairs a day instead of 2...
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#15

Post by Deanofid »

I have a Mac refiller for my propane bottles, too. Using that method, nothing is cheaper than propane. But if you have to buy your propane bottles, CF beats it badly. Our propane from the refill place here is pretty cheap. It's usually around $12 for a 20 lb/5 gal tank fill up. I have about 20 bottles I use for refilling.

I haven't been to a store that sells Crown yet. Walmart is about 75 miles away, and I don't get there often. I'll get some next time, though.
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#16

Post by JimL »

>>Walmart is about 75 miles away...

WOW! I've got at least 5 Walmarts within 8 miles of me. I don't know how they survive competing with themselves.
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#17

Post by Stovaholic »

Another clear advantage of CF over propane is cold weather use. It doesn't matter whether you're in the middle of Death Valley desert in July or on top of Mt. Washington in February when you're using CF. The BTU's released are pretty constant, no matter what ambient temperature or altitude you're dealing with. Propane on the other hand is more like a 3-season fuel. Here up North (Quebec), propane is a very bad choice for winter camping or ice fishing trips, and the 1lb bottles are totally useless at around 10 degres F and below. The bottle gets clogged by frozen condensation and no fuel comes out of it at all.
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#18

Post by curtludwig »

In one of the 52 week videos my propane torch wouldn't start at 16F, my 413E lit right up...
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#19

Post by JimL »

From the correspondence course:


Gas.png
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#20

Post by Stovaholic »

curtludwig wrote: In one of the 52 week videos my propane torch wouldn't start at 16F, my 413E lit right up...

Link please, thanks.
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#21

Post by toddcline »

Stovaholic wrote: Another clear advantage of CF over propane is cold weather use. It doesn't matter whether you're in the middle of Death Valley desert in July or on top of Mt. Washington in February when you're using CF. The BTU's released are pretty constant, no matter what ambient temperature or altitude you're dealing with. Propane on the other hand is more like a 3-season fuel. Here up North (Quebec), propane is a very bad choice for winter camping or ice fishing trips, and the 1lb bottles are totally useless at around 10 degres F and below. The bottle gets clogged by frozen condensation and no fuel comes out of it at all.

One other advantage to CF vs Propane is if you have CF appliances and you run out of CF, you can siphon some gas out of your vehicle to get by. Not sure what you'd do with a propane lantern/stove..

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#22

Post by JimL »

Alain,

Perhaps this is it. He's lighting a Wenzel (PMax clone) and it was the torch giving him difficulties. What are the chances? [smile]

Curt, is this the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBvS5--FLEY
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#23

Post by toddcline »

JimL wrote: >>Walmart is about 75 miles away...

WOW! I've got at least 5 Walmarts within 8 miles of me. I don't know how they survive competing with themselves.

Hopefully they will run themselves out of business. After all, that's what they did to the local stores... What's good for the goose........

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#24

Post by Stovaholic »

toddcline wrote:

One other advantage to CF vs Propane is if you have CF appliances and you run out of CF, you can siphon some gas out of your vehicle to get by. Not sure what you'd do with a propane lantern/stove..

Todd


Right! And with a 2 or 3-burner stove, you can burn CF, unleaded gas, propane (with converter), and even kero (with appropriate setup). No propane stove on earth can provide such fuel flexibility.

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#25

Post by Deanofid »

The chart shows propane still making a little pressure at -20F, but here in the hard part of winter when it is -20F day and night, a propane cylinder will only run for a short time, then it stops. The cylinder will also stick to your bare hand like glue. Like cold, burning, glue. I am able to get pretty good use out of propane down to around 0F. The light is a bit dim, but it still works. Butane, on the other hand will not even come out of the can at freezing temp. Down around zero, I poked a hole in a can and it just poured out like water and puddled on the ground. There was no pressure in the can whatsoever. Kind of weird.
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#26

Post by toddcline »

Yeah, I recall a few years back being at an Amish auction in November. It was cold, about 45 degrees. They had these propane radiant heaters on 20 Lb. tanks inside the barn. They would have to shake them up every 10-15 minutes or so just to keep them running. CF or Kerosene.. That's my thing.

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#27

Post by JimL »

That's weird yet funny about butane remaining a liquid and being poured out. I was using my Brunton (butane) lantern last winter and thought it was running out of fuel. Turns out it had plenty of fuel. It just didn't want to come out very much at 30 degrees. Looking at the chart, I could see why.
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#28

Post by cptuap »

Dean, I'll take your findings and add that since I burn almost all single mantle lanterns, I am doing just fine economy wise at this time. Price changes may occur at any time but that's not the worry when you prefer the CF or Kero burners anyway. The low temp advantages of CF or Kero are a bonus. Most people do just dispose of the small propane cylinders and that is a waste. I do tend to use a small propane lantern inside my trailer for quick lighting and less odor for the "little woman", but that's another story. Economy not the issue there. Just keeping it simple, if you know what I mean.

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#29

Post by Deanofid »

Just so I didn't give the wrong impression, I don't have a problem with propane. I have a number of those kind of lanterns, and some are kinda favorites, but I like CF better for all the reasons; CF is cheaper if you compare to buying 1 lb bottles, CF makes great reliable heat, and is a super star in the cold weather.
Really, I like all my lanterns. CF, kero, propane, even the little butane ones. If they make fire or hot light, they're good. [smile]
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#30

Post by curtludwig »

Stovaholic wrote:

Link please, thanks.

February 5, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZQGnC4tBY

Geez, I guess I need to go back and watch my own videos once in awhile. I'd completely forgotten (blocked out?) that the torch didn't want to stay lit when I was lighting the Wenzel. That was a pretty bad torch head, I've got a better one now.
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#31

Post by magikbus »

Those complaining about propane being a poor fuel to use in cooler temps are correct. As the propane boils away inside the can, it's evapouration causes it to cool drastically. See the reason air conditioners work for technical explanation of evarourative cooling. The evidence to prove this is the frost that forms on the outside of the tank. I can't tell you how many times I've had to warm up the little green propane cannister to get breakfast cooked on a frosty morning.

When I was farming in Dawson creek in the early 80s, I could unscrew the liquid output hose on our large propane tank and run liquid propane into a tin cup at -40 or colder. It would just sit there and slosh around in the cup. breathe on the cup and the warmth from your breath would cause it to boil. Don't try that while smoking!
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#32

Post by Stovaholic »

curtludwig wrote:

February 5, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZQGnC4tBY

Geez, I guess I need to go back and watch my own videos once in awhile. I'd completely forgotten (blocked out?) that the torch didn't want to stay lit when I was lighting the Wenzel. That was a pretty bad torch head, I've got a better one now.

Thank you Curt.

By the way, I just finished watching L. Lab Episode 7. Great video, as usual. And congrats for your 1000-subscriber milestone. Keep up the good work!!

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#33

Post by Gunhippie »

I know from experience is that when I light up my 426A at a campout, with everyone else burning propane, I have to fight to use my own stove! When working and living in the woods, I rarely filled the tank on ten-day outings. Two meals a day, ten days, 2 qts.

Winter camping, I use my MSR Whisperlite or GK--the little ultra-light butane job I carry for nice weather does not cut the mustard. Even using isobutane, which vaporizes at around -12 C or 10F, you have to get the little can warmed up to get the stove going. Once going, it heats itself and will burn well down to about -40 (my experience), but gasoline is still much easier to use.
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#34

Post by Stovaholic »

Here's a good one showing how dependable CF is in extreme cold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Czq-h6EmQ
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#35

Post by Scouter_Angus »

That was awesome. Smart guy.
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#36

Post by Chucker »

Oh yeah. Gotta do whatcha gotta do.

My friend Don uses a tarp over the top of his Allis Chalmers with a heat source under it to get his to start.

Years ago a friend, Dale Binns told me it was his job as a kid to keep a pan of used motor oil handy to light and place under his dad's 1920's era tractor in cold weather.
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#37

Post by Lanterndude »

This info is in reference to what the title to this thread indicates.

This picture was taken from the side of my NorthStar Duel Fuel Lantern box.

IMG_0620.JPG



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#38

Post by dave »

Most of my coleman fuel lanterns will burn all night till daylight but none of my propane lanterns will go that long
275 Apreciation Syndicate Member #0019 dave !
COLEMAN, AMERICA'S TOP OF SALES LANTERN IN THE USA!!
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