200A and 202 reproduction
frames back
in stock.
cdmurphy
*assuming your garage contains a kiln :-)

Take one ratty, rusted 242c vent:
20140424_122326.jpg 

Sandblast off the old porcelain:
20140424_130647.jpg 

Spray with GC-16 ground coat from Thompson Enamel, thinned to the consistency of heavy cream:
20140502_150740.jpg 
 
Dry completely, then into the kiln for 3 1/2 min at 1450 F to flow the glaze: 20140502_151250.jpg 
20140502_151240.jpg 

Spray with 771 Flame Red, also from Thompson Enamel:
20140502_155455.jpg 

Again, 3 1/2 min. at 1450F, and viola!
20140502_155941.jpg  (Just out of the kiln, still glowing!)
20140502_160259.jpg  (Final result!)
20140502_160907.jpg  I need to clean up the rest of the lantern, but the hat sure looks spiffy.

Quote
nfadude
How much you.going to.charge for this service? Because I predict quite an interest. How many colors do you have available?
Always looking for 237 parts, new, used, or broken.....Michael..theDude ICCC #1423
Quote
konabill
Im next. A red 242 .......Thats awesome !
Quote
FJ60Cam
Uh yeah, what they said! (Boxing up a vent right now)
Cameron
Traveling Lantern Host #7
Quote
Rocinron
Nice work ! Very interesting.
Ron
Well, ain't this place a geographical oddity-two weeks from everywhere!
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate Member #0085
If it makes fire, and light, and heat....
ICCC # 1336
BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #067

Quote
brucesheehe
COOL!  or I mean HOT!

 
Bruce Sheehe
ICCC #889 - Connoisseur of Time, Friends, Leisure, & Coleman   Altoona, PA - The Mountain City - Near The Eastern USA Continental Divide
Quote
Bill
Do you normally use your kiln for firing ceramics?
Bill Sheehy, aka Merlotrin P.M.      ICCC #1390      eBay handle: wtspe
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #24  /  Mil-Spec Ops, Bernz-o-Matic, and Sears Syndicates #58
Looking for birthday lanterns dated 4/33, 9/33 & 7/86

Quote
LakeGeorge
That is great! Nice work!

What amazing talent we have here on the CCF!


Gary Coleman, I am.
I.C.C.C. #1035
11th Annual East Coast Coleman Convention, June 5-9, 2019. Gettysburg, PA
Quote
tshells1
I have a kiln. I need to talk to you a little more in depth. I've been wanting to get into this too. [smile] Where do you buy your spray?
FloridaTom
There is a very fine line between hobby and obsession.
ICCC# 1196
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate Member #0039    Ebay handle - tshells1

WTB/WTT - Need a 222 GREEN Vent - have a black one for trade or will purchase outright, Also looking for a 249 fount.
Quote
nfadude
https://thompsonenamel.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=771&osCsid=jfmmq9qtvt57g52eui1ieelsl7&x=0&y=0
Always looking for 237 parts, new, used, or broken.....Michael..theDude ICCC #1423
Quote
thezman
That is outstanding work...Kudos
I'm Larry most of the time.
Quote
curlyjoe_99
too awesome
Robert (AKA Curly)-- Heart-of-Texas! "Keep 'Em Working"  
MILSPEC_OPS & 275 Appreciation Syndicate Member #9999

In Search of (ISO): evidence of a 220/228 series lantern dated 2/63    

Quote
Darren
Nicely done.
Globe Collecting Site!
Darren
This member has passed away.
Quote
Weirdnerd
CdMurphy, You just made a lot of friends here...

Amazing job! it could be interesting to know how much you charge per vent?
Can't sleep, squirrels will eat me....

If you need a Sun Flame Generator Model 100-107 ( for Sunflame lanterns models 105, 106, 107 and 110) give me a PM, I have close to 80 of those, 15 bucks each.


Werner
Quote
Steve_1
Wow !
You make it look so easy!
Stevie G.
Quote
mworley1
That is a super job, I too am wondering about price and turn time! [smile]
Mark
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
"The smell of naphtha triggers my OCD collecting..."
Quote
cdmurphy
Sorry guys,  I don't think I'll be offering this as a commercial service any time soon.  My compressor that drives the sandblast cabinet is only 3 HP, so it takes about 30-40 minuets to remove the old porcelain.  Now I see why IPE has such a backlog.

There are a few more kinks to work out as well -- the base coat should be much darker.  I tried dipping another vent, and got a much thinner, but uneven and splotchy coat.  It did fire much darker, but not quite the coleman dark blue-black.  I also need a better green -- all they have in this "Liquid Form Enamel" is "Hunter Green", which comes out sort of a bright pea-green.

Here is a color test I did with some of the colors I ordered:
20140502_142426.jpg  20140502_145759.jpg 

These colors were just roughly brushed on, so they didn't fire too evenly.  #800 is actually a nice light pink that will be going on some 200a vents for my daughters.
Quote
Darren
Looks good. You might try soaking the vents in citric acid for a day or 2 and then blast. The citric acid really breaks down porcelain. Don't ask how I know.
Globe Collecting Site!
Darren
This member has passed away.
Quote
evoos
Cool! I came across an estate sale full of kilns not long ago. Maybe I should have grabbed one!
Just call me Voos.

ICCC #1503
Quote
Bill
I'm finding this thread very interesting.  Would the typical ceramics kilns be hot enough to porcelainize the enamel on a vent?  There are a number of ceramics classes and studios in the area.  I would imagine that if you had the material already sprayed on a vent (or two, or six), you could go to a ceramics studio and have them put the vent(s) in the kiln on their next scheduled firing date.
A number of us have abrasive blasters and air sprayers, so the prep work could be done whenever you choose.  It would just be a matter of meeting with the owner of the kiln to schedule two firings. Am I oversimplifying this, or does this sound doable?
Bill Sheehy, aka Merlotrin P.M.      ICCC #1390      eBay handle: wtspe
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #24  /  Mil-Spec Ops, Bernz-o-Matic, and Sears Syndicates #58
Looking for birthday lanterns dated 4/33, 9/33 & 7/86

Quote
cdmurphy
Mukilteo - I might be able to do that in the future for prepped vents, but right now I'm swamped with paying work.  I would have to charge $100-$150 a vent to make it worthwhile, and that doesn't seem reasonable.

Bill - Any regular ceramics kiln will certainly get hot enough -- these temperatures are only mid range for most ceramics.  (I think porcelain is fired at closer to 1900 F)  The big problem is accessing the kiln, and timing.  The vents need to be fired at least twice, once to set the ground coat, and another for the color coat. They are loaded straight into an already hot kiln, not loaded cold like pottery.  The other issue is time, they only fire for 2-3 minutes.  I don't think anything too bad will happen if that is extended by a few minutes, but certainly not tens of hours like pottery. From what I understand, the hot loading and short firing times are to control oxidation. You don't want the steel sitting under the powder oxidizing for several hours at almost red heat before the glass powder finally flows and seals it off.   

There isn't any reason a local potter couldn't help you out, but they can't just throw them in with another load.

A couple of things to think about:

You will want some sort of jig to hold the vents up off the floor of the kiln.  I used a small section of 1/8"x2" steel, bent up at one end to grab with pliers, with a short section of all-thread welded in the center.   The vent just sits on a nut on the all-thread,  holding it up several inches from the floor.     I will probably make another one with much less mass, as I found throwing the jig and vent into my small kiln dropped the temp almost 200 degrees in the 5-6 seconds it took me to open the door and load the part.   This brings me to another issue -- temperature.  Thompson Enamel recommends firing at about 1450F.  I found I needed to run the kiln at about 1625F to get it to settle at about 1450F immediately after loading the vent.  The temp would climb about 10 degrees over the 3 1/2 minutes I fired them.  I don't have enough experience yet to know just what effect time and temperature have, but there is obviously a minimum temp below which the glass won't flow, and too high of a temp may oxidize the steel too much, or drive other unwanted reactions between the steel and glass / fluxes.
Quote
Bob1774
Cameron,
Really nice job!
I do not understand the thermodynamics of glass & steel together, so maybe this is a silly question.  Would a vent with some chips, be able to be just re-fired, to fill in the chipped areas?
Sort of like melting wax?  If not, perhaps if a chipped vent were heated, removed, could the liquified glass be "spread" to cover the voids and then re-fired?

I am presuming the answers are "no & no."  But, I'm hoping maybe?
Bob
Quote
HillCountry
That is really neat! I have done ceramics in a pottery studio and a college art department, made the glazes, stacked the kiln, etc., so this looks very easy. There seem to be small electric kilns that run on 110 volts that might be large enough to do a vent. How much glaze would you say it takes to coat a vent? Their website is one of the worst I have ever seen, and it was hard to find much of anything or make much sense out of what they had. The smaller batches of glaze looked pretty reasonable. As you say, having a spray booth and a large enough compressor to power it makes a difference. I never thought about a small electric kiln to do your own, but it sure looks very doable. Thanks for showing us what you are doing, it is great!

Stoneware usually is what they call "high-fired" and runs about 2300 degrees F, which they call "cone 10". You use pyrometric cones made of special clay that deform at a certain temperature to determine your kiln temperature. You want an oxidizing kiln atmosphere inside with no free carbon, or your colors will turn dark. There is a lot of science that goes into this, but doing the vents is pretty straightforward.

Thanks Cameron!
Tim - ICCC Member #1217
Quote
Junkboy999
Woooo  Me Likey the BLue.....
Terry Aka Junkboy999
ICCC#1327, 275 ASM #0999 Coleman BLue #999
Looking for Coleman 2 burner stove or tank dated 5-64.
Quote
Kevin
Cameron, my hat is off to you for posting this. I have wondered about this process many times.
Quote
Deanofid
Very interesting thread, Cameron.  I could read whatever you want to write about
this subject!  Fascinating.
Dean -Midnight Kerosene Ritualist--http://www.deansmachine.com  ICCC #1220.   275 commiseration #0018.
"In Him was life, and His life was the Light of men."  John 1:4
Quote
Kmot
Very nice job! [smile]
~Tom~

Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate Member #0017

ICCC #1274
Quote
cdmurphy
Bob -- The existing enamel does reflow a little bit, but not enough to cover much of a chip.  There isn't any reason the dings can't be touched up though -- you would just need a good color match, something I haven't worked out yet.  


I did some more experimenting yesterday, and learned some things.  Looks like I was applying the ground coat, and maybe the color coat too thickly.   I tried spraying a test strip of steel, and all that is needed is a thick enough coating to where you can't see the steel anymore.  Apparently the darkness of the ground coat comes from some reaction with the base steel -- too thick of a coating leaves un-reacted, lighter gray enamel on the surface.  Also it looks like these colors are ground finely enough that they can be mixed for intermediate colors.  I've ordered another batch of colors, including enough green and black so that I can hopefully find the right ratio to get some good matches to some of the various shades of Coleman green vents.  I plan to mix 5-10 samples with increasing amounts of black, and spray them all in a progression on a sample strip.   I'll be sure to post the results so that others who are interested can have a decent starting point.

I also tried painting some of these colors straight onto an otherwise stock vent.  I plan to decorate a few lanterns for presents with the recipients names or maybe some designs.

20140503_180530.jpg 
Quote
cooler
evoos wrote:
Cool! I came across an estate sale full of kilns not long ago. Maybe I should have grabbed one!

Yes!
I see them all the time at estate sales. Kinda expensive but a lot cheaper then buying a new one.
Collecting Coleman when Coleman was not cool...


Quote
SteveRetherford
Nice work , my Mom has a kiln , so you have peaked my interest . what kind of sprayer did you use to apply the glaze ?
[DrSteve2]    Steve , Keeper of the Light !!!
Quote
kwik129
Oh my....I can't wait now. I have acess to a kiln. Thanks for sharing.
Kurt
Quote
Darren
Someone with a kiln try to slump a globe for me. [smile] I think having a slumped 200A globe would be cool.
Globe Collecting Site!
Darren
This member has passed away.
Quote
Stan_D
"Slumped"?
Einstein, when describing radio said "Wire telegraph is like a very long cat. You pull his tail in NY and he meows in LA. And radio works the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."
Quote
dbosch
I want you as my neighbor.
Dan B.  ICCC #100
The Texas Dust Bowl

Faith is not about everything turning out okay; faith is about being okay no matter how things turn out.
Quote
JimDouglasJr
SWEET!  You beat me to a red-topped 242!  
Kyle. Kaptain Kamplite - America's Finest Lantern Fettler.
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate and 243 Blues Member #0031 &  J.C. Higgins aficionado.
“If you light a lamp for someone else, it will also brighten your path.” Buddhist quote.  Brand-X Super Hoarder.
Quote
Darren
Here's a slumped bottle. I'd want the globe standing up like it was in a lantern and not on it's side like this bottle.

Globe Collecting Site!
Darren
This member has passed away.
Quote
campmaster
2 questions.

#1 did that come out red? it looks burgundy. which is what i need.
 #2 can you fire it too hot? that vent looks bent on the lantern. Like the top is off center. Is it? or just the pic.

Nice work. [smile]
ICCC Member #1045

Dave
Quote
Hoddy_R
What would the start up costs be for something like this?
Quote
Battdad
Can you mix colors to get a darker green. Do the colors mix like paint. Like if you mix white and red to get pink. Yellow and green to purple ect. Or is it even possible to mix them?
Frank
Quote
Deanofid
JimDouglasJr wrote:
SWEET!  You beat me to a red-topped 242!  


Muu-ahh-ha-ha-ha...

242 red.jpg 
Dean -Midnight Kerosene Ritualist--http://www.deansmachine.com  ICCC #1220.   275 commiseration #0018.
"In Him was life, and His life was the Light of men."  John 1:4
Quote
cdmurphy
Steve --  I used a normal HVLP gravity feed gun with a 1.6mm tip for the red / burgundy vent at the start of the thread, but have since tried a much smaller touchup gun with a .8mm tip with great results.  Thompson recommended a .060 tip HVLP gun, which works out to about 1.5mm -- I found it really laid it on -- probably too much.  The touchup gun seems perfect, and saves quite a bit of material on cleanup.  (Harbor freight has a pretty decent one for about $15).   I did have to strain the liquid enamel through a tea strainer as recommended by Thompson, as there were several 1/16" sized particles in there.

Campmaster --  #1:  I wouldn't quite call it burgundy, but it's close.  Looks pretty close to some of the AGM vents I've seen posted.   It was #771 "Flame Red" from Thompson Enamel.  I've also tried samples of their #930 "Chinese" or "Oriental" Red  (They call it either one in different places.) This is a much brighter, more orange-y red.   I haven't tried a full vent yet, but I think it will be a pretty good match for a stock 200 vent.   As for firing it too hot, I really don't know, but I would assume there is some upper limit.  
#2: The vent actually turned out great -- I can't see any warping or other problems, and the porcelain filled in all of the pitted and rough areas from the old rusted chipped areas.   I think what you are seeing is a combination of the vent maybe sitting off to one side of the stud hole, and a poor camera angle.

Hoddy_R -- It depends on just how much you already have, but at a minimum, you would need:
Kiln -- $100-$300 Used, $600-$2000 New
Enamels:  ~$25 for 8oz each of GC-16 ground coat and one color, shipped.  (8 oz will probably be enough to do 10-15 vents, maybe more.)
Abrasive Blast Cabinet: ~$100  (Harbor Freight)
Compressor:  ~$100 (I wouldn't go any smaller than 1HP -- Real, not peak HP)
HVLP Touchup gun: ~$15-$100, depending on brand and quality.

Battdad --  The colors come from glass that is uniformly colored, then ground to a fine powder.  As long as it is sifted to remove any of the larger particles, it looks like they mix pretty well -- I tried a few combinations shown in my last post of white and red and white and blue mixed in various amounts, with pretty good results.  The only problem is if the colors are very different, or the particles are too large, which might lead to a speckled or grainy final color.  Thompson claims that all of the colors in this "Liquid form enamel" can be intermixed, so I assume they've done their homework regarding chemical compatibility.  I know that with pottery glazes, many of the colors are due to chemical reactions, and mixing two glazes rarely results in the color(s) you would expect.  I would still test any color mixes first, but it looks like most combinations work about as expected.

Dean -- Nice lantern!  Did you have IPE do it, or have you found a kiln already?
Quote
Murff
Gents:

If someone is interested and has the talent, I know someone who has a kiln, blast cabinet, compressor and vent porcelain colors already pre-mixed.

The kiln is large. He used to refinish kitchen appliances. I know this prrson would be interested in selling his equipment.

Contact me for more info.

Murff

Name: Murff   ICCC Member #726 
Coleman Blue's 243's #002   Ebay Handle: Happy-campers2 
Soon-to-be EX-ICCC Newsletter Editor & Coleman Addiction Enabler
Quote
mtnrider29
cdmurphy--

Have you run that 242 with your new ceramic vent?  I am really interested in knowing how it holds up after running and getting hot and staying hot for a few hours.
Nick " Sixty percent of the time it works everytime."
ICCC Memeber 1443
MilSpecOps: 052
28 lanterns and 7oops 9 stoves…. maybe i need to work on my ratio

 

Quote
MustXcape
If anyone has recipes for common Coleman/AGM/other porcelain enamel colors I sure would be interested in them.

That side loader kiln looks a heck of a lot easier to use than my top loader.
I can stop collecting anytime. I just don't want to.... Soooo.... How much do you want for that?
[75x48200a1][75x4840][75x4810][75x4820][75x4860][75x4890][75x4830]
Quote
cdmurphy
Nick -- I did finally get a chance to run the refinished vent.   Here is is after about 2 hours running, pumped up as bright and hot as I could get it:
20140505_133205.jpg 
The color darkens to a dark brick red with heat, but returns to normal on cooling.  I couldn't see any changes or damage from the 2 hour run, and didn't hear any tinking or popping on cool down that might indicate bonding problems.   Obviously this isn't an exhaustive test, but it looks like the porcelain will certainly hold up short term.

MustXcape -- I don't have any real info yet, but I'm getting another batch of colors next week, and plan to do some thorough testing of mixes of the green and black powder, in an attempt to match the green colors Coleman used on their vents.  I've got maybe 20-30 vents of different ages, so I should be able to match the modern green, the lighter green of the 220B-220D's and maybe the seafoam from a Canadian 242 vent I just picked up.  I'll record everything to the nearest %, so others should be able to replicate the mixes without too much effort.  (Hopefully the colors from Thompson Enamel are fairly consistent batch to batch.)
From what I can tell, the vent I did earlier in the thread ("771 Flame Red") looks like a pretty good match to the red/burgundy AGM vents. The "930 Oriental Red" looks like a very good match for the red 200a vents I have.  (I haven't actually done a vent in that color yet, but the small samples I did on a test strip look very close, but maybe slightly brighter -- it's hard to tell.)
Quote
242burner
Any of you Navy guys see that gray vent and want to do a battleship gray lantern with an etched globe of the ship you sailed on?

Or was that just me loving on that fantastic gray color???
1928 L-220 "Slant" from Russ
1919 Air-O from Jerry
500 Speedmaster

Quote
hikerduane
Nice work.
I have a kiln for sale also, moms, she used it to fire colors on china.  New was over $700.  Cress LT-3K.  I believe it takes a 220 outlet.
Duane
Duane-All seasons, year round backpacker and camper.  So many stoves who's counting.
Quote
cdmurphy
Update 5/13/14:  
    I received another batch of colors, along with some better classifier / sifting screens.  The material as supplied is a very fine powder, but it looks like there are some consistency issues in terms of large grit / particles that are mixed in.  Thompson recommends straining the mixed liquid through a fine mesh tea strainer to remove any large particles, but I found that I was still getting some small, but noticeable particles in the sprayed finish.  (grains maybe .015"-.030" in diameter.)   I ordered a set of 100-150-200-325 mesh sifting screens, thinking I would need to sift down to 325 to make sure the final liquid was smooth.  Turns out the 100 mesh is almost too fine -- it takes about 5 minutes to sift an 8 oz. package of powder, but the sifted result is very smooth -- certainly fine enough.  I suspect an 80 grit screen might be a better compromise in speed / fineness.   I also tried filtering some of the liquid I already mixed up last weekend -- no luck -- even the 100 mesh is too fine to be useful.  I'm going to order the 60 and 80 mesh sizes as well, maybe they will work to filter the mixed liquid.   After sifting the green, black, and yellow powder, it appears that 99% or more of the powder is super fine - maybe 200-300 mesh or finer, with maybe a gram of larger (sand to 1/16") particles, and a few large (1/8" to 1/4") flakes.   With the larger junk removed, the resulting finish was great, and the colors mixed very smoothly.  I didn't see any graininess or unevenness to the mixed colors. 
    I tried to match the Coleman green of various eras, using the bright "791 Hunter Green" and "772 Black" powders.  I did a test panel of 21 squares: 100% Green to 100% black in 5% increments (by weight of dry powder).  The results were fairly linear until about the 50-60% black squares, where it was so dark that subsequent patches all looked about the same.  The results are decent, but not quite right yet.  The 70% Green / 30% black square is close, but all of the colors are a bit too yellow.   Tomorrow I plan to try a few more color series, adding 3-5% blue to some samples in the 70/30 range to try to get it "greener".  I'm also going to try to match the seafoam vent color from a Canadian 242 vent I have. -- I'll keep you guys updated.

The 100% colors on the left are: (Left to right, top to bottom)
772 Black, 940 Mousse (grey), 533 White, 930 Chinese (red), 771 Flame (red),
769 Goldenrod (yellow), 799 Sky (blue), 800 Petal (pink), 791 Hunter (green), 767 Peacock (blue)

20140513_180129-Edit.jpg 
Quote
HillCountry
I appreciate the work that you are doing and would love to try it myself. I think a small ball mill would help you to get a finer consistency in your grit. I think that a tumbler used for polishing brass casings would work well.
Tim - ICCC Member #1217
Quote
Scouterjan
VITA MIX Machine would also work, great topic, pottery kiln here as well
Jan
"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Welcome to the Coleman Collectors Forum, an international forum of Coleman enthusiast and collectors, as such people from all over the world come here to read about Coleman collecting, repair, and to meet and make friends. The pages contained here are intended for the use of amateur collectors and people interested in Coleman collecting, restoration and repair as a hobby. It goes without saying to refrain from political posts, personal attacks and inflammatory posts.

Please note, all postings are the personal opinions of the members posting, the owner, administrators and moderators of the forum do not warrant the accuracy of posted information or endorse the safety of such.