200A and 202 reproduction
frames back
in stock.

Gunhippie
I'm adding a second 40 gal propane water heater to the pub. My question is, do I put it in parallel or series to the existing one?

TIA--
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
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Whitegas Extraordinaire
I’m going to say parallel unless you are looking to create steam which will destroy the second tank.
Thank you
Kevin
I frighten easily!

My current shade is Coleman!!

To me a lamp without a shade is creepy!

ICCC # 1865

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mgmlvks
Our Chief Building Inspector here says he has seen it both ways.

I suspect it may depend on your needs - hotter water for longer times vs. HOT water for a shorter time
Mike, ICCC member #1156, Slant Saver Group #011, 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0215, FAS #20 - Confusing Future Generations of Collectors One Lantern at a Time
"In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present"
Francis Bacon
(and - for those who have asked - avatar from postcard and says "Coming Home by Rail".  https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4595/27430282209_39a564be00_z.jpg
 
 
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Gunhippie
Thanks, folks!

Mike--We're having trouble with the hot water keeping up with the increase in dishwashing, as we use dishes instead of burger baskets now. So I guess we need hot (160F) water for longer.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
mgmlvks
Series is the answer then
Mike, ICCC member #1156, Slant Saver Group #011, 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0215, FAS #20 - Confusing Future Generations of Collectors One Lantern at a Time
"In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present"
Francis Bacon
(and - for those who have asked - avatar from postcard and says "Coming Home by Rail".  https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4595/27430282209_39a564be00_z.jpg
 
 
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JimL
If you went parallel, would you be dividing up the plumbing so half feeds from one tank and the other half from the other tank? 

Also, what about adding some type of on demand system that will allow hot water in the primary hot water heater to be drained  of hot water more slowly and perhaps allowing the existing water heater to keep up?

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. - Dave Barry
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Gunhippie
Jim--We looked into an on-demand heater but the throughput wasn't enough to keep up with a commercial kitchen dishwasher.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
JimL
I was thinking of the on demand to be an assist for the existing water heater, but not a replacement for a water heater. 

You do come up with some interesting projects, both work and non work related.

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. - Dave Barry
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Gunhippie
The water heater would be limited by the throughput of the on-demand heater. I tried! Besides, there is far less maintenance on a propane water heater vs an on-demand heater. I just drain them annually.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
outlawmws
I would vote for series also - it won't do steam as the second just keeps the already heated water hot, and the first does some preheating in high demand times

but had you thought about a dedicated heater for the dishwasher, and the second for everything else?
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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Gunhippie
Outlaw--(don't you even have a first name?) It's a matter of space. Upstairs, where the water heater lives, I have space. Downstairs near the dishwasher, none. Too damned much plumbing to have dedicated heater all the way up there.

I'm getting old and mighty lazy....
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
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paulunderpressure
I vote parallel. Reason being the input water pipe cant handle hot water I believe. Also just as in an electrical circuit that would increase the heat not the capacity. Its like putting two car batteries in parallel. 
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Gunhippie
Hmmm... the intake pipe is still galvy steel (I think--need to check that), but it does feed to the bottom of the tank... easier to plumb series, but not that much harder to go parallel.

And, yeah, following your battery analogy, I'm looking for more amps, not more volts.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
outlawmws
I don't think the battery analogy holds water here (Pun intended)  Essentially you are getting a bigger reserve in series.

No greater pressure, no greater temperature (unless the temp settings are out of whack).

In parallel you will be a bit at the mercy of any restrictions introduced by fittings and pipe length - there would be no guarantee of an even draw from both tanks.  Even the feed pipes and flex hoses could affect this.  Assuming both are the same tank capacity,  If one goes cold due to a higher flow through, the water temp will drop as delivered.

In series you are using #1 as a pre-heater, and #2 ensures it stays hot.  If the first one starts going cold the second has a second shot at getting it hotter.  (recovery rates will matter here if different)

Also the tank is glass lined steel and the pipes/tank fittings are steel - whats not to handle?   I'm guessing all copper pipes to feed it, right?  Any flex lines will be temp rated as well  (If it works in the out it works for the connection flex joint)

A bigger tank heater may also be an option (expensive, assuming available in profane) and may not have the recovery needed anyway?
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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paulunderpressure
Maybe I am thinking about when its installed. Thought you have to be careful with the cold inlet not to get it to hot. I think the inlet pipe is plastic inside the tank. Capacity wise its most likely the same. The second tank  wont fire up until the first tank is depleted. 
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Majicwrench
House I bought here in LIbby 25 years ago had two in series.  We had three girls and they could take loooooong showers so it worked out well. When one finally failed girls had gone so I went to just one.
Keith
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Gasman64
I haven't a clue, Timm, being rather ignorant of commercial/institutional plumbing technicalities.  However, I think the education I get here will be interesting.
Steve
ICCC #1012
logoballistol logo 1a.png

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byegorge
I would have two one for the dishwasher (too hot for customers) and another set at a safer temp for customers.
George
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Whitegas Extraordinaire
Zulu Kono wrote:
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.


There were water heaters built with a plastic dip tube in them. Not sure if they are still made this way but 15-20 years ago they started to crack plugging up aerators.
I frighten easily!

My current shade is Coleman!!

To me a lamp without a shade is creepy!

ICCC # 1865

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Whitegas Extraordinaire
http://www.texasinspector.com/files/Water-Heater-Plumbing.pdf
I frighten easily!

My current shade is Coleman!!

To me a lamp without a shade is creepy!

ICCC # 1865

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Rfieldbuilds
Gunhippie wrote:
Outlaw--(don't you even have a first name?) It's a matter of space. Upstairs, where the water heater lives, I have space. Downstairs near the dishwasher, none. Too damned much plumbing to have dedicated heater all the way up there.

I'm getting old and mighty lazy....


LOL.  🤣
Randy
QL #15, Slant Saver #59, #0269 Turd Hurdler, #0269 Mil Spec Syndicate, Coleman Blues 243 #0269, BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #072, and a few others too.
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Rfieldbuilds
Timm, I deal with gas appliances in a lot of restaurants.  I see a lot of restaurants dealing with lack of volume/capacity add a second unit inline that is just a holding tank for the work the first water heater is doing.  Pretty common down here in Kommifornia.

edit, in most breweries, I tend to see gas boilers..not sure if ya all have NG or are married to LPG at TG. 
Randy
QL #15, Slant Saver #59, #0269 Turd Hurdler, #0269 Mil Spec Syndicate, Coleman Blues 243 #0269, BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #072, and a few others too.
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74HARLEY
I would put them in series Timm. Easiest plumbing, and parallel doesn't guarantee both tanks will draw down equally.
Joe
looking for 200a 11-56,9-77,2-65 Coleman 275 appreciation syndicate member #0004 ICCC #1262
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #19
Frank appreciation syndicate member #9
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Duck
At one time I owned a 12 rm motel in upstate NY. On high volume weekends showers would go cold quickly. I had 4 heaters. One heater 3 rms. When it became time to replace them I still only had 4 but I put 2 in series for each floor. 6 rms to a floor and it worked much better. Would still have a hard time on high volume weekend but not as soon and recovery was faster.

Joe
Mil-SpecOps #0219
Stovie and Damn proud of it

”life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It’s the transition that’s troublesome!” Isaac Asimov 
 In my defense I was a little drunk and was left unattended!

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Taco912


Excellent info and says it all.  Plus I love illustrations.  Particularly helpful with non-matching units.  
Coleman 243 Blues  #812
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rainjer
Could you instead do adding another hot water tank just add a storage tank with a recirculating pump?
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Gunhippie


Thanks, Man!

That was just what I needed.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
mgmlvks
Great link!   Sent to the chief Inspector .
Mike, ICCC member #1156, Slant Saver Group #011, 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0215, FAS #20 - Confusing Future Generations of Collectors One Lantern at a Time
"In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present"
Francis Bacon
(and - for those who have asked - avatar from postcard and says "Coming Home by Rail".  https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4595/27430282209_39a564be00_z.jpg
 
 
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Ciancio
What kind of dishwasher are you using? What temperature do you run the water at? Are your hand sinks running on mixing valves or strait off the hot water?
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micaglobe
We have a parish hall that we have a big meal in two or three times a year, we had the same discussion
as to parallel or series.  We went series, and for normal times, we just turn the first heater off, that should make it last a long time,
this was done 8 or 10 years ago, has worked fine.

Fred
ICCC#324
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Gunhippie
Thanks, all!

Series it is.

To satisfy the inspectors and insurance, I have to have the propane guys do the propane hook-up and vent, then I'll be plumbing it. Hopefully tomorrow.

We don't have the option of natural gas out here. Big propane tanks are everywhere. Electric water heaters don't like our high carbonate hardness water at all, so we're stuck with propane.

Our dishwasher wants 160F water--no pre-heater built in. I've installed mixing valves on our public hand-wash sinks to prevent burns.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
Whitegas Extraordinaire

Timm
Curious as to your choice of series? 

Different brands/capacity?

Ease of plumbing?

Thank you!
Kevin

I frighten easily!

My current shade is Coleman!!

To me a lamp without a shade is creepy!

ICCC # 1865

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Gunhippie
All of the above, Kevin.

Actually the two are the same brand, capacity and output, but one is three years old. I'll put that one in second place.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
Gunhippie
I installed the second water heater in series, with the new one up front.

Word from the kitchen is : "A dream come true! We have all the hot water we can ask for!"

So I guess I still have a job for now.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
Ciancio
I would turn down the first tank (120°-130°) to "balance" the load on the two heaters. Otherwise the second unit is basically just a holding tank until the first tank can no longer keep up.

Your dishmachine still has me confused, I have never seen a unit that requires 160° incoming water.
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Gunhippie
I may experiment with that when things slow down this winter. Right now, it's working just fine and I don't want to incur the wrath of the kitchen crew--they have sharp knives!
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
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shaune509
The commercial systems I've seen are mainly a sanitizer, dishes are prerinsed, then hot rinsed in unit and pulled out to air dry while still hot. No dish soap used in the washer just the HOT water and less then 3 miniuts of time.
Shaune509
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Gunhippie
I reviewed the kitchen dishwasher. It uses a detergent cycle followed by a rinse/sanitizer cycle, so it doesn't need the 160F water. That was our old dishwasher that didn't have a sanitizer cycle. I'll turn the water heaters down to a safer temp. The kitchen crew had the old single heater turned all the way up to make the insufficient hot water go farther.

Our pub glass washer has a pre-heater, so uses cooler water then heats it to 180F for sanitizing.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
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Bob1774
The amazing things you learn while trying to figure out lanterns.  Thanks for all the sharing of knowledge to those who know what they are doing!  I don't know if I'll ever need this info, but I sure feel better having stashed it away somewhere in my hippocampus for later retrieval.
Bob
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Gunhippie
What's truly amazing is how much more useful the advice I got from this forum of (mostly) old cranks was than that from my professional brewer's forum. Brewers are a bunch of prima donas by comparison.

You all rock!
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote


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