200A and 202 reproduction
frames back
in stock.

salukispeed
I have tried 70 durometer Viton ( bit too hard )   60 dur Buna and a few others and last week I found McMaster Carr has 1/8 inch Viton closed cell foam sheets. About the same hardness as weather strip foam or cured RTV and very smooth on both sides. Can a PIP be too soft??? I have a M1950 that likes to leak past the Pip sometimes. and I am trying the foam Pip in it now for two days. I tried it soaking in CF for nearly a week and no swelling so far. It is a little funny to cut them out since they want to be hour glass shaped using a leather hole punch.  I am a little concerned it may extrude into the hole if left pumped up for a long time. If I seems to work well I would make a few for anyone wanting to try it. No promises just high hopes. David L sent me a sample of his Pips and so far so good and they seem a bit softer than the ones I made until this Foam attempt.
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
Gunhippie
To help with the hourglass shape, try spraying some silicone lube onto the sheet before punching. Make sure your punches are as sharp as possible, too.

Keep us updated on this!
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
gwillmot
Saves time and guesswork.  Just trim flat next day and you're done.
Pip1.jpg  Pip2.jpg 
Moon Shadow Eliminator
[black-and-white-moon-images-8-desktop-background]       
Quote
Chucker
Or wipe some oil on the sheet before punching to avoid most of the hour glass issue. 

BTW, Viton can be found in 60 and 65 Durometer and 1/8in. but it's pricey. 
Chuck
"...we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Romans 5:3-4
Eye-SEE-C-C Member #1333 -- MilSpecOps #003
"Michigan - from the Ojibwa word “meicigama,” meaning “great water.”
Quote
salukispeed
I was trying to avoid the pricier material also so will try this. Thanks for the lube tip for better punch 

Is Grey RTV fuel proof. If so it could be another solution. Now that you mention it I have some Dow corning white petroleum solvent proof material worth trying. 
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
Chucker
You go Bob.

I'm one that is always looking for a good alternative if choice #1 isn't available. Please post your findings and - be safe. 
Chuck
"...we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Romans 5:3-4
Eye-SEE-C-C Member #1333 -- MilSpecOps #003
"Michigan - from the Ojibwa word “meicigama,” meaning “great water.”
Quote
Coldwaterpaddler
@salukispeed To get rid of the hourglass shape you need to grind/hone the cutting tool really sharp. I actually used a honed leather punch insert in a drill press and get really good results. I just turned on the drill press and took a fine file to it then cut the gaskets. 4.5mm

Also, Viton is hard, but I found that Viton foam was way too soft. If you're willing try Flourosilicone sheet, that's a good way to go, too. I began using it recently in M-1950 and M-1942 stoves with good success. Fluorosilicone sheet is expensive, though. It has similar properties as Viton (temp and fuel resistance) but is considerably softer. That's what Coleman used on the single-burner backpacking stoves like 442 Exponent and 222 lanterns. If you don't want the expense of buying it, I'd sell you a few for the cost of shipping only, cut to size for the M-1950, just for another data point. The pip is the weak point for M-1950 and M-1942 which are otherwise rock-solid, so if there's a way to make that better, I'm willing to give it a try.

You can always swap out the BunaN pips once per year, as well. It's not difficult as you know, but it is frustrating when the pump gets loaded with fuel and the leather gets dried out and doesn't work. Plus, then you're always worried that it'll begin spraying fuel once the pressure increases after the stove heats up. I've been experimenting for a couple of years. ðŸ˜
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
Quote
gwillmot

salukispeed wrote:

Is Grey RTV fuel proof. If so it could be another solution. Now that you mention it I have some Dow corning white petroleum solvent proof material worth trying. 

I was told that the "grey" was definitely fuel proof.  I can only attest that I have used it on 4 lanterns with no detrimental effect or deterioration at all.  The first lantern was done over 2 years ago and still works great.
vary.jpg 

Moon Shadow Eliminator
[black-and-white-moon-images-8-desktop-background]       
Quote
salukispeed
The silicone seems as it could be the right hardness and so long as it is square and smooth seems a win win also. 
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
JimL
@gwillmot

You mentioned using the Permatex Ultra Gray on lanterns but have you actually used it for PIP material?
 

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
Quote
Gunhippie
My experience with RTV silicone is keep it away from fuel! Silicone sealants in any form I've found them. It will eventually turn into a nasty, messy gel that will clog everything downstream.
It's priceless until someone puts a price on it.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him--then you're a mile away, and he has no shoes.
Texan's last words: "Y'all--hold my beer--I wanta' try sumptin'."
Timm--Middle of nowhere, near the end of the road, Oregon.
Quote
gwillmot
JimL wrote:
@gwillmot

You mentioned using the Permatex Ultra Gray on lanterns but have you actually used it for PIP material?
 


That's ALL I use it for ..... making PIPS instead of using leather, cork, rubber etc.
Clean cup .... fill cup .... let cure (I do overnight) .... trim for flat face if necessary ..... reassemble ..... BURN!
Moon Shadow Eliminator
[black-and-white-moon-images-8-desktop-background]       
Quote
salukispeed
I too have only bad experience with RTV and fuels like gasoline and  such But I have not tried any of the low volatility ones like the Grey . And there is a Dow Corning RTV that is pretty much impervious to Oil gas, Alcohol, Animal fats. Acetone,Toluene can get to it. So This could be uncharted territory worth investigating ( Maybe ) Cautiously
I am testing the Viton Foam Pips in a M1950 and an AGM 3608 right now 3/4 full of fuel and pumped up around 1/2 pressure. Both are sitting in separate buckets in case they fail and leak 18 hours and all good so far. and no swelling of the pieces in test bottle. I may try a sharpened tube in a drill press to cut out pips by rotating the tube as it is pressed thru the Viton to reduce the Hourglass shape even more. 
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
scl
the grey could be a good idea there.
Quote
salukispeed
24 hours more and no issues. still holding good pressure and lit right up no leaks or any trouble pumping more. So far so good. with the foam Pip's
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
JimL
@gwillmot

>>That's ALL I use it for ..... making PIPS instead of using leather, cork, rubber etc.


Thanks.  I just wanted to be explicit on this.  I'm having an issue with an M-1950 that will no longer seal.  The pip was put in 1-2 years ago and worked flawlessly until recently.  Tried pip replacement and stronger spring to no avail.  This sounds like it may be a good substitute for pre-cut pips.

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
Quote
Weirdnerd
I have several aircraft 2mm fuel filler gaskets that come as a kit but normally not needed ( they come in twos, but normally we just replace only one), I may get more, I used that gasket material to duplicate all the gaskets on my Akron 134G, Petromax filler cap and a Primus 1020, and two years later they are doing well. the material is rated for immersion on 100LL gasoline, so I guess it is a good one.
Can't sleep, squirrels will eat me....

If you need a Sun Flame Generator Model 100-107 ( for Sunflame lanterns models 105, 106, 107 and 110) give me a PM, I have close to 80 of those, 15 bucks each.


Werner
Quote
salukispeed
Nearly a week now and both the AGM 3608 and the M1950 have not leaked a significant amount of pressure or fuel from the Pip that I can tell.  I have been lighting them every evening without even pumping them back up and only bumping the pressure to get back to normal operation.  I let them run for 20-30 minutes and then just shut off the valve,  This weekend I will remove them to see if the super soft Viton is crushing or distorting. 

Quote:
If you need a Sun Flame Generator Model 100-107

Might you have spare generators that include the 3608's
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
Dmacp
Quote:
My experience with RTV silicone is keep it away from fuel! Silicone sealants in any form I've found them. It will eventually turn into a nasty, messy gel that will clog everything downstream.
The FAA prohibits silicone on any fuel components.

Most aircraft fuel seals are BUNA-N, (nitrile) various durometer. Viton has properties that make it superior in many applications but fuel isn't one of them. 
The hourglass shape comes from compressing the rubber sheet flat before the punch shears it. You can avoid it by using the punch very slowly on a drill press. Best way is actually injection molding, which was how Bassnett made his cap gaskets. I had asked him to please consider adding pips to his line, but that never happened.
Dave (eel) send me some Buna cord with which you slice off pips with a razor. That is better but hard to get flat.
Dan
ICCC member #604
Quote
gpaguy
I think I'm going to try some of that Viton closed cell foam stuff. I'm having trouble with the pip in a Lindeman & Hoverson lantern. I used some Buna n material that I have been using for o rings and it is not working at all in this pip.


John
Quote
salukispeed
What size is the diameter of the pip and how thick. I have a 6x6x1/8 inch piece. I still do not know how it will function over the long haul. And will not trust it till it does.   I offered a couple pieces to JimL and have not gotten to the post to follow thru yet. they are in the envelope ready to go.  PM me and I can offer the same if we can get a couple more in the field for testing and proof or not. This should not be this hard as it has been done for 100+ years 
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
MYN
I use Viton for pips, gaskets and seals. I have the 70-shore hardness sheet. I don't know if that's equivalent to the 70 durometer but I find them just a little too hard for pips too. I'd prefer something as soft as silicone rubber for pips. Unfortunately, RTV silicone has never work for me when they're in contact with gasoline or kerosene. From my experience, they'll just swell into some semi-gel blobs, disintegrate and clog up the gas tip.
There's another material that has an even higher chemical, solvent and heat resistance than Viton, in addition to being generally softer. Its called the expanded or foamed PTFE. Its way pricier than Viton too, and that's the only reason holding me back from trying them out.
Its resistant to acetone, MEK and other ketones too, whereas Viton is not.
Quote
Rfieldbuilds
Silicone is also eaten up by alcohol, so if you have any ethanol in the fuel you use <tisk, tisk> Expect the binder in the silicone to give way and make a mess of your fount, genny, and plug orifices. 
Randy
QL #15, Slant Saver #59, #0269 Turd Hurdler, #0269 Mil Spec Syndicate, Coleman Blues 243 #0269, BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #072, and a few others too.
Quote
Coldwaterpaddler
I'm intrigued by the Permatex Ultra Grey results as time goes on.

I'm curious about how the Viton Foam will hold up after a few weeks. I have a small sheet of this and had it in an M1950, but after 3 or 4 days I came back to a flooded pump tube. Maybe I was too hasty in my decision and there was something else wrong. However, with a different material for the pip it hasn't leaked since then. Hmmm . . . I still have some.

Fluorosilicone as many of you know is what Coleman used on stoves and lanterns beginning in the 1980s. If you've ever taken apart a GPA that uses these O-rings, then you know that Fluorosilicone doesn't swell and turn to goo like typical silicone. It's real problem is wear.

I have decided that any rubbery material submerged in fuel for years is going to go bad, so why not just change them out once per year? They just need to work perfectly for that one year, though.
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
Quote
SteveRetherford
we have this same conversation many times over the years . its a temporary fix at best .... i dont use it .
[DrSteve2]    Steve , Keeper of the Light !!!
Quote
salukispeed
Beating a dead horse???? I thought I was on to something and maybe not??? Just do normal maintenance???
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
Coldwaterpaddler
I don't think you're beating a dead horse. People can be creative and when you try something yourself, you learn something new (to you), even it it's something someone else already learned. However, in the process of learning you may then discover something nobody else has or at least never made public. So, I say, keep after it. There's a reason I have three small sheets of BunaN (50, 60, 70), three different sheets of Viton (different thickness and surface texture), 1 sheet of Viton foam, one 3"x 3' strip of ECH, 1 small sheet of Fluorosilicone. I've tried all of these and also some silicone for mold making (which was very bad for pips, BTW). As noted in my previous post. Maybe I gave up too soon on some materials and more data points could be beneficial.
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
Quote
JimL
Beating a dead horse?  I don't think so.  Some threads aren't relevant to everyone when initially posted, but are when the occasion arises that you want the information.  Since the forum search has been pretty much broken since the new software, I don't mind a repost and healthy discussion.  If I search a topic, I see the oldest ones such as from 2010, or none at all.  If it's two weeks old, it won't appear in the forum search results but might appear in a search from outside the forum.

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
Quote
lynn225
Polysulfide is a product similar to RTV with excellent resistance to fuels including gasoline, diesel, kero, and lubricants, as well as long term thermal cycling up to 250 degrees. Usually used in industrial applications, we used it where I worked where we rebuilt tracked military vehicles such as the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and M109 howitzer. In aerospace applications, it is used to seal fuel tanks. In consumer applications it is often used in marine/boating applications, for the same fuel resistant properties. (Marine sealant applications may be the best way to buy it for consumer use. Google it).  In touch and feel, it is just like RTV during application and after curing.  This may provide the properties you need for making pliable but fuel resistant pips.  Here is a link to an industrial supplier showing details of polysulfide properties. Hope this helps...    https://www.masterbond.com/products/polysulfide-adhesives-sealants-and-coatings
Lynn Klingel
Huntingdon, PA

All your lantern are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time.

Coleman Blues 243's  #137
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0218
Mil-SpecOps #0218
Quote
MYN
The polysulfide adhesive looks really promising, I'd say.
For pips that couldn't seal with viton that has a higher-than-desirable hardness, I'll revert back to the good old cork.
They don't last forever but they're inexpensive, still available(at least for now) and works.
Quote
JimL
Bob,

Thank you.  I got the pips today that you sent and I'm impressed.  My "Born to Boil" M-1950 is back in service.  Not that I expect any issues, but heck, it was so easy to replace the pip, that if for some reason I needed to change one every trip, I'd be good with that.  Working with it was like working with a foam earplug.  I just rolled it between my fingers and put it in. 

Strangely enough, the pip stopped the fuel leak from the pump, but then the cap gasket started leaking.  I feel certain I changed it when I rebuilt the stove a year or two ago as standard operating procedure, but upon removal, it came out in pieces.  I can't imagine why it wouldn't last, but fortunately had spares.

Here she is, ready to boil something up.
Born to Boil.jpg 

I want to be clear on what this material is.  Is this the McMaster Carr 1/8 inch Viton closed cell foam noted in your first post?

Thanks again!

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
Quote
salukispeed
Yes the same Viton from Mc Master Carr #3156T33 for the 6x6 sheet. Pretty pricy for one or two Pips.  or even 10. I happened to have some from a project . No promises as to life expectancy I just do not know.  
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
JimL
All I can say is that I'm still impressed.   I certainly like the idea of rolling it up and just inserting it rather than fighting to get a pip inserted.   Just fired up the stove again a few minutes ago.  The pip has no problem holding back the fuel / pressure.

What size punch do you use?


From a few minutes ago.
M-1950.jpg 

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
Quote
salukispeed
Yes the Mc Master Carr 3156T33 6x6x1/8 is what I have, I had some left from a project. Unfortunately it is very pricey for one or two Pips or even 10. I am interested to see how it holds up over time.  I used a 3/16 leather punch but had much better luck when I removed the punch and put in my drill press and spun it as I pressed it thru the viton against a piece of  plastic/delrin  It eliminated most of the hour glass issue
Bob
ICCC 1868
Perfection appreciation #10
Milspec 65252
Quote
mcdugal2
I use the Viton closed-cell foam for pips also. It works great in my Pentiss Wabers lanterns... I will also say after a year or two it stays kind of compressed, but well formed to the sealing surface so it still works. It also now looks very similar to the original cork pip the lanterns came with...
Phil Rhoades ICCC# 1125
The Coleman Blue's 243's. #035

"I'm a man, but I can Change, if I have to, I guess." - Red Green
Quote


...
...
Welcome to the Coleman Collectors Forum, an international forum of Coleman enthusiast and collectors, as such people from all over the world come here to read about Coleman collecting, repair, and to meet and make friends. The pages contained here are intended for the use of amateur collectors and people interested in Coleman collecting, restoration and repair as a hobby. It goes without saying to refrain from political posts, personal attacks and inflammatory posts.

Please note, all postings are the personal opinions of the members posting, the owner, administrators and moderators of the forum do not warrant the accuracy of posted information or endorse the safety of such.