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Mulsanne
Greetings,
I am fairly new to this hobby and I enjoy it and this this community. I have done a few newer model lanterns and stoves and now I am working on my first 200a (11/54). This lantern was found in a barn in Maine. It seems in pretty decent shape. I cleaned it up, put on a fresh mantle and fuel in it, but it burns very rich with an orange color and some flame-ups. It does not go out though. Here is what I have done:
  • cleaned the air tube
  • replaced generator
  • replaced fuel cap (the font seems to hold pressure)
  • replaced the pump cup
  • removed the FA tube and cleaned it (it didn't seem bad though)
  • cleaned the check valve with carburetor cleaner and compressed air
  • mantle is a Peerless 2C-HG
I removed the housing and just had the generator attached, pumped up the tank and opened the valve to see if the fuel is flowing through the generator. It does and squirts up about 2 feet in the air. If I try to pump it with the pump closed, the pump does get firm. I have not gotten into valve assembly, but it seems a bit stiff turning the knob. So at this point I am stumped. Any advice you you can give is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
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ecblanks
Your symptom is very common when the air tube is not fully clear. When you say you cleaned it, did you clean the outside of it or did you run a brush up into it and pull out any cobwebs?  The obstruction could also be up in the upside down U tube at the top.   You'll need to disassemble to clear that.
Carlton - 9/73
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973

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Mulsanne
That was my first thought too. I removed the air tube and u bend and cleaned both with a bore brush. Sorry, I should have made that clear in my original post.
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arizonacamper
You will need to clean the entire tube thoroughly even the smallest obstruction like a small spider web will cause you problems and welcome from Southern Arizona
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MartyJ
How long have you ran it on the new generator?  I have only worked on a couple of 200's but they both seemed to have an hour or two break-in on the new generators.  I am not expert enough to say why or if it was just a coincidence but maybe someone else has similar experience.  If you check this forum under "pulsing 200" or similar search you will find a lot of reading.
Marty
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Gand28
Did you replace the generator with a new one and does it have a tip stamped with a “6”?
Greg -- Fiat Lux!
ICCC Member #1273
Seeker of Canadian Nickel!
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Mulsanne
The generator is a new one, ordered from OCP. I didn't see a "6" stamped anywhere though. The inside of the air tube and U bend are completely cleared.
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Gand28
There have been some known "new" generators coming from Coleman with the wrong tip.  The very end that unscrews will have a stamp on it.  6 is the mark for the single mantle 200A5891 generator.  It's a longshot, but if the tip size is wrong, it could be delivering too much fuel.  Your description is too much fuel or not enough air.  Looks like you have done all you can to clear the airways.  That's why I was going at it from the fuel delivery side.

Greg -- Fiat Lux!
ICCC Member #1273
Seeker of Canadian Nickel!
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Mulsanne
Just checked, i see the 6 now. I needed my glasses.

I am going to go through disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly again. I must of missed something.
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JimL
One possibility, albeit remote, is that the frame/cage had a washer under it originally.  Without it, the generator would sit inside the air tube a bit deeper than intended. 

Since you replaced the generator, you could try putting the old one back on and observing the behavior.

-Jim

If your hands and under arms are bleeding, your beer bottle might not have a twist off cap.

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Dmacp
if you are certain the air tubes are clear, then it is possible there is contamination inside the valve. Old gas, solvent, graphite powder, something like that.
How is the spring on the F/A tube? is it in the correct location-under the follower not on top? Try some clean fresh fuel. Let it run a while.
If it does not shut off there might be a groove worn into the cone on the end of the valve spindle.

I had a spider nest built right on top of the burner screen once. Missed it several times.
Dan
ICCC member #604
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Nightlight for Aliens
Mulsanne wrote:
Greetings,
Here is what I have done:
  • cleaned the air tube
  • replaced generator
  • replaced fuel cap (the font seems to hold pressure)
  • replaced the pump cup
  • removed the FA tube and cleaned it (it didn't seem bad though)
  • cleaned the check valve with carburetor cleaner and compressed air
  • mantle is a Peerless 2C-HG

I removed the housing and just had the generator attached, pumped up the tank and opened the valve to see if the fuel is flowing through the generator. It does and squirts up about 2 feet in the air. If I try to pump it with the pump closed, the pump does get firm. I have not gotten into valve assembly, but it seems a bit stiff turning the knob. So at this point I am stumped. Any advice you you can give is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,


Make sure you clean the U-Tube and screen as well (you didn't mention that)


Just to mention,
Yesterday my Fuel Air Tube was found to be defective. I removed it and shook it up and down. The center tube moved causing a clicking noise.  My other Fuel Air Tubes I can tap with a finger and hear a tone like a tuning fork .. a harmonic tone of the inside tube vibrating.
So make sure your inner tube didn't come loose as part of your 'check list'.

The valve turning:  You can undo that nut and it will half way pull out the packing. I remove mine and with 0000 steel wool I polish up the valve shaft so it shines. (I like the look of brand new out the factory) but this cleans up gunk that can cause it to be tough to turn. I then (I might get told off here by others) put a drop (toothpick drop) of "tri-flow" (which is extremely old oil used for BMX Brake cables.. best in its time..I'm 52 and had it for YEARS). Then I tighten that nut back up. I do a pressure test, dunk in water pumped up with air.. and if it barely leaks... cinch it down a tad to get that barely leak stopped, then you know your limit on how tight it is going to need to be. You can also buy new packing for that valve in the old coleman parts site.

Check ball/valve: Pump it up 35 pumps, hold finger over the hole on the down stroke before turning it closed.. see if the pump raises up slowly... rusty check ball might need more soaking. WD-40 worked for me.. spray in, do about 1/4 pump.. leave it.

Fount: Any old fuel / rust can cause problems with Air Fuel Tube,Generator, and or Check Valve.
My solution was to soak with white vinegar inside for a WEEK... It still didn't get everything out.. so I am 100% convinced that you MUST buy steel BB's (steel -with or without zinc as long as steel). I bought 2000 zinc coated steel BB's at walmart for about $3.69. Used half the container with vinegar and shook it in many directions while watching TV.. for 35 minutes. THEN my weeks work was known to be a waste of time.. should have done this in the first place. (Maybe an over night soak then BB action. You dump out the BB's and you have about 20 left inside you can't get out. That is why you use a pen magnet to fish them out : )
Rinse with water in the tub using the shower head on stream (hot water) about 3-4 times..
Made a solution of hot water and baking soda.. dumped the BB's in again and shook for 5 minutes.. upside down, every direction. Did this solution twice.
Rinse with hot water.
Brought it out dried if off and hair dryer for about 20 minutes... so hot you can't hold the fount. 
Sprayed WD-40 inside so it coated the bottom. 
All this time I had a light stick that went into the fount in the open fuel hole that I can completely see what is going on.
Then I sat and watch TV turning the fount while the holes were taped off. WD-40 coated everything. Drained all I could a couple days later.
No rust! My fount was sitting in a garage with no fuel for a couple of years from the guy that sold me the lantern.
I sanded the fuel inlet with 500 grit sand paper and a dowel , then 1000 grit. It is polished up pretty good.
Top of the fuel cap neck looked good no dings and fuel cap seal is fresh. Seals up 100%

You can use some gasket sealer for the main valve assembly screwing back into the fount for proper seal while you align the direction wheel into position. Rusty red was the color on my factory 220 seal.

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Mulsanne
Thanks everyone for the advice. I will try what you suggest and let you know in a few days.
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zoomkat
"I removed the housing and just had the generator attached, pumped up the tank and opened the valve to see if the fuel is flowing through the generator. It does and squirts up about 2 feet in the air."

Well, I think with this type of lantern, when the fuel valve is 1/4 turn open, there should be a mix of fuel and air sputtering out. After the fuel valve is fully open, the stream coming out of the generator should be fuel only. When you cleaned the F/A tube, did it have a fuel control rod in it?
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Nightlight for Aliens
Mulsanne wrote:
Thanks everyone for the advice. I will try what you suggest and let you know in a few days.

Disassembly Procedures  ( Click here )
Cleaning and Preparing for Reassembly ( Click here )
Re-Assembly Procedures ( Click here )
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Dmacp
everyone has opinions including me.
My opinion is the "BB dance" is a waste of time as far as rust removal goes. It will not uncover serious pitting and damage. Rolls right over it. Even sharper objects like square nuts and screws do not touch what is below the surface in pits that often go all the way through.
It'd  be OK for cleaning out dirt and grime, no problem there. But not rust. No offense intended. I used to be one of a very few that'd tell you that, but I hear it more often now that more people have discovered pinholes that had been there for years and suddenly let go. If your fount has more than "just a little" rust you need to investigate further. Rust never sleeps.
Dan
ICCC member #604
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Nightlight for Aliens
Dmacp wrote:
everyone has opinions including me.
My opinion is the "BB dance" is a waste of time as far as rust removal goes. It will not uncover serious pitting and damage. Rolls right over it. Even sharper objects like square nuts and screws do not touch what is below the surface in pits that often go all the way through.
It'd  be OK for cleaning out dirt and grime, no problem there. But not rust. No offense intended. I used to be one of a very few that'd tell you that, but I hear it more often now that more people have discovered pinholes that had been there for years and suddenly let go. Rust never sleeps.

No offence taken! What do you suggest then 🙂 ?
I had my Fount half full with vinegar for a week, Looked great.. then a week after fuel was in it the bottom looked like slime from a pond, had a coating in there, flakes, all weird stuff. Seemed pieces of metal were in there but it was a paper plastic substance when I touched it with a screwdriver. Only thing really cleaned out good was the BB's. 
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Dmacp
if you really want to get it, a light bead blast of the bottom inside of the fount will remove the rust, and you can visually check it with a bore scope. Rinse it with Acetone (thoroughly), blow dry then when dry, give it a coat of caswell's epoxy.
If there is a lot of corrosion, or the fount is steel, the entire inside must be cleaned, particularly the very top where condensation forms droplets. If it is a true barn lantern, that condensation is very corrosive. a rubber hose on the end of a bead blast nozzle works very well for this. you don't want or need a lot of pressure. The result is very clean and no more surprises.

If you are less fussy soak it in a solution of an appropriate (weak) acid or evaporust.  Vinegar should work. Citric acid, Phosphoric acid (crud cutter) is another.
two things are show stoppers. One is the tin dip Coleman used to use in their founts. Tin is very active in acid and those are the flakes. You've got to get them out. Hot water and lots of shaking following the acid soak will flood your sink with flakes of tin. Do that until it is gone. The other is the egg yolk like substance evaporust sometimes leaves. I change out the solution when it starts to thicken. Rinsing with boiling water gets a lot of it out. The caswells will seal it before it starts to rust again, which it will in short order. If you don't intend on coating it, hit it with WD40 immediately after rinsing with hot water. Blow it out if you have air, then hit it again with WD.
Rinsing with alcohol will also soak up excess water, it is cheaper than acetone.
For extremely dirty founts nothing beats easy-off in the yellow can. It contains sodium hydroxide (lye) and will get it out. Don't use it with acid because it is a strong base. There is a certain corrosion that forms in brass founts that is a beautiful emerald green, I think the metal constituent is brass, not sure what is dissolving it but it usually means trouble. Get it out.
I know guys have used strong acid, (Hydrochloric or Muriatic) to shorten the job. It will attack things like solder in a hurry so be very careful if you do.
My good friend Don the Junkman used boiling citric acid on a preway frame rest and was surprised when it came out missing the name plate. It's lead.
Dan
ICCC member #604
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Nightlight for Aliens
Awesome idea Dan!
Thank you for all that information.. I took a screenshot of it and will treasure that information! Thank you again Dan!

I have used Muriatic acid on a construction job.. rock wall.. and we used  a 30% mix. We rinsed for 1.5 hrs the street because the run off it was still smoking.
NASTY stuff.
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zoomkat
After the BBs, acids, caustics, solvents, and a paint shaker, one needs to sacrifice a chicken, preferably a ten piece bucket of extra crispy!
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Dmacp
 
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chicken, preferably a ten piece bucket of extra crispy!


and a beverage of your choice. Mine would be Modelo :-)                
Dan
ICCC member #604
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Mulsanne
So, done a few things, not really seeing any improvement at this point. Cleaned the font with denatured alcohol and BB's. It wasn't rusty, but there was a fair amount of dirt that got removed. Cleaned the valve stem, FA tube, FA rod and all those brass bits to where they are almost like new. The valve does open and close nicely now. Put fresh fuel in and it still burns orange with a flame-ups to start. Once it gets going it does continue to burn orange pretty consistently, it doesn't go out or sputter, but never burns brightly.

Lanterns seem to me to be like a musical instrument, when they tuned well, they are beautiful, but out of tune they are not. It's all about getting that balance between the right amount of fuel and air. So how do tell if I am not getting enough/too much fuel, or not getting enough/too much air?

Jeff
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zoomkat
What size/type of mantle are you using? If it is too small, you may be getting some over burn. If the mantle is too large, it may not get heated enough for the brightest output.  Usually when a lantern is thought to be back to factory specs and it does not function well, it often turns out that an assumption is being made that is not valid. Could be that the air and burner assemblies have been adequately checked for obstructions, and they have not. On the other hand if too much fuel is being supplied, then there may be issues with a non stock generator/orifice. Just sounds like too little air or too much fuel.Also somebody in the past may have messed something up.
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Mulsanne
It's a Peerless 2C-HG
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Mulsanne
Eureka! Success at last!!
The main issue was a stuck ball bearing in the check valve. I resolved it with some carb cleaner and then taking a can of compressed air, sticking into the valve and giving it a good blast. The unstuck and now she runs like a champ!

Thanks everyone for the advice.
Jeff

Model 200a.jpg 
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zoomkat
Proof positive that the chicken must be extra crispy, regular just won't do.
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