200A and 202 reproduction
frames back
in stock.
Nevada_Ed
Kicking around today and got to work on something I had been thinking about. Here is my concept generator for a 201 style kerosene generator. What I wanted was more surface area, more filter and longer life. There are pictures to show it, but the idea is to cause the fuel to travel out of the inter tube at the bottom to the outside tube and back into the inner tube at the top. You can see the travel path in the two each holes in the bottom and two more in the top. A fine mesh brass screen was used inside the smaller tube at the top, below that I used some fiber from a 5101 generator and pushed and packed it snugly just above the two lower holes in the inter tube, this causes the fuel to take the long path out of the inner tube to the outer tube. This generator is made up using a hard solder, silver solder substitute (a much higher temperature solder), no place for soft solder here. I will have to make up a horseshoe pre-heater for it but it is working quite well. Took about an hour to make it up, and partly that was stopping to take pictures, lol.  Ed





Top and bottom holes are on opposite sides of the inner tube.


Ready to braze:


Turbo-torch and special brazing rod:


Both ends brazed, this is red hot brazing, just a little more heat and the metal melts:




Ready to assemble:








Running on 100% kerosene very nicely, no pulsing, bright:


Running a couple of hours here:

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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DaveD
Nice job! Do you know if it is possible to use a 249 large gen in a 242 conversion?
Cheers
Dave
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Nevada_Ed
The valve assembly is different on the 249, larger generator, and nut. Also the 249 fount has a larger bung than the 242 so it can not be used either.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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highdesert

That's some good stuff you're doing Ed. I like the theory behind it and the execution even better. You're running that on kero, correct?

Shaun, ICCC #979
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libsead

That is great Ed.  With this set up how often do you think you will have to clean the generator?

Roy, Let There Be Light! Looking for a 9-70 b-day Lantern!
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Jim_l
It seems there'd be no practical way to clean between the two tubes. Wonder how long it'd burn before carboning up. You'd think quite a while with the larger size.
Matthew 5:16: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Jim-- Coleman Blues Member #014
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BCosby
Did you put any packing in the outer tube?
Cool Idea!
"Exceptional Engineering is easily outdone by the Exceptional Idiot"
-Looking for any 6/67-
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Nevada_Ed
Thanks Shaun, yes 100% kerosene, I added a note to the picture of it burning about the kerosene. Has a worn #3 nozzle and running a bit on the hot side, may change the nozzle to a new #3 or a TI, it is filling out a #99 mantle just fine. I am going to make a few more, want to try/test one out for me? Next time you are near here stop by and pick one up.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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chancho
How did you preheat it? No preheat cup. A torch would blow out the mantle.
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StanDahl
I don't get it. What is the purpose of the outer tube? Why are the holes you drilled so close to each other, and at the high end of the outer tube? What goes on inside the outer tube?
ICCC Petty Bureaucrat #CMLXII...
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Nevada_Ed
Bryan, no packing in the outer tube, thought about some of the brass mesh, maybe on the next one.

Ryan, I had to pre-heat with the torch, will get a u-shaped heat cup for it later.

John, the fuel travels out the bottom holes to the larger surface area and to the opposite side and back in at the top, the purpose is longer travel and more surface area to gunk up before it jams up. Surface area wise there is a lot more surface in that larger piece of tubing, as well as the surface of the outside of the inter tube. The center tube path is blocked with thick packing just above the lower holes.

Jim, no practical way to clean it no, but if it lasts a long time as I hope it will, it will have served its purpose. I am already considering one size larger tubing.

Also I choose two holes, top and bottom, just to be sure there was plenty of path for longevity, maybe one larger hole upper and lower would work just as well.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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StanDahl
Okay, I missed the lower hole on the opposite side.
ICCC Petty Bureaucrat #CMLXII...
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Murff
Do I hear the engineers at Coleman calling you, Ed?

Murff

Name: Murff   ICCC Member #726 
Coleman Blue's 243's #002   Ebay Handle: Happy-campers2 
Soon-to-be EX-ICCC Newsletter Editor & Coleman Addiction Enabler
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highdesert

Now you need to add some fins Ed. More heating area. Like the 238 I think it was?

Shaun, ICCC #979
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Scouterjan
Ed, thats really great, try and find yourself a horseshoe cup from a P Max clone, they have a built in mounting tab, thats the cup I used on my Monster Mil Spec
Jan

"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
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brucesheehe

If there were any question about Ed's genius level IQ, this should answer it.  Brilliant! 

Bruce Sheehe
ICCC #889 - Connoisseur of Time, Friends, Leisure, & Coleman   Altoona, PA - The Mountain City - Near The Eastern USA Continental Divide
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SteveRetherford

pretty ingenious , this just goes to show you AGAIN how much Ed likes his Kerosene . he dreams like a Coleman engineer .

[DrSteve2]    Steve , Keeper of the Light !!!
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Nevada_Ed
Over night I thought about a couple of things, so today I am going to make a few more. Here is the second one, outer tube is extended some. Also I used  only one hole, near the top and bottom but a larger diameter, this will create a longer travel path. Used a little more care in the brazing this time and it shows in a more attractive job. Close ups of the second generator.  Ed







During the high heat of brazing is gets some oxide II that shows as some black flakes, so this one has been bathed in dilute hydrochloric solution to dissolve the oxide, then neutralized and re-annealed, here it is ready to put the nozzle on and install.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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curtludwig
Ed, is that copper tubing? Is there any danger of rupture? I don't know what kind of pressure copper is good for.

What if you used a cutting wheel to make a horizontal slot instead of drilling holes? Seems like you'd want as much of an opening as possible while keeping it near the ends..

It also seems like you could just cut the top and bottom off the starter generator and braze them to the new one giving you all that surface area without the complication of the inner tube, it'd be more difficult to align but I suspect you could make a jig for it, you seem like a clever guy . With that method it'd be possible to clean somewhat and extend the life of your handywork.

Good job! Send me one, I'll make a video with it.

Curt

2017 ICCC Convention Host

BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #019

http://www.youtube.com/c/lanternlabs
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Nevada_Ed
Curt, brass as an alloy is stronger than copper, but at least here the copper wall is a good bit thicker than the brass wall of the generator, also brass has a melting point at about 1700 degrees F. and copper just under 2000 degrees F. So I am thinking it will do ok. I did think about splicing the ends only, lower and upper, but got to thinking since the stock generator gets used anyway and needs a guide for the pricker, I could use that inter piece as my filter holder, even change the filter if needed, so I decided there may be advantages to making it up the way I did it.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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StanDahl
I would have done that and then realized later that I forgot to put the nut on before I did all of that brazing!
ICCC Petty Bureaucrat #CMLXII...
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Ramaniac
This is amazing Ed.  I wonder if it will burn cleaner, and use less kero than the normal kero generator?

Stan, that was soooo funny!!  I said the same thing after I read it. 
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Christopher_OR

Wow to the whole project. Good on ya for taking this on and posting the results!

Christopher OR 

1970 – 2017 R.I.P.
This member has passed.

His Favorite Quotes:

"Life is about turning the things you want to do into things you've done." --KRD

"I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way." --Samuel Clemens

"Everyone looks good in the fish eye lens that is the side of a Coleman fount." --raly13

ICCC #947
Coleman Blues #041
A turd is something you flush.
-----------------------------
76501 00037
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riko
Well Done ED !

I Like the idea  .
just a thought  would swageing down the ends of the outer tube not reduce the amount of filler required and make brazing easier

Enrico
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Nevada_Ed
Yes indeed Enrico, good observation and I have been looking in my tool box for something that lent itself to that very thing. I am going to resolve that before I make another. I already used the drill press chuck and key to narrow the ends, but need something more symmetrical.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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curtludwig
Hey Ed,
I figured the thickness of the copper would make up for it being weaker than the brass, just something to think about...


Curt

2017 ICCC Convention Host

BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #019

http://www.youtube.com/c/lanternlabs
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Jim_l
I though it was determined in some other threads that copper was too weak. Can't remember what threads it was in.


Matthew 5:16: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Jim-- Coleman Blues Member #014
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Nevada_Ed
There has been a lot of good input and questions here, thank you all for the interest and help.

Jim, I don't know for sure on copper as a material, here I used it as it is readily available and I have some confidence in it due to the thickness of what I am using. In the longer term, after proof of concept, I might consider purchasing some brass tubing, there would be an advantage in a thinner walled product. The milspec lanterns use an aluminum generator and I am sure it is an aluminum alloy of some kind but over all copper fairs favorably in strength and melt points with aluminum.

Aluminum melt point:  1220 F.
Copper melt point:      1984 F.

Element Young' Modulus Yield Strength Ultimate Strength
iron 211 080–100 0350
copper 130 033 0210
aluminum
070 015–020 0040-0050

Lots of factors to consider, but for testing I think this will work out pretty well.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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Jim_l
You may be right. I know very little about metallurgy, just remember reading something on here about it. It might have been about making a Q99 or something. In that case the thickness would be less.
Does copper have any tendency to stress crack like some brass does ?


Matthew 5:16: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Jim-- Coleman Blues Member #014
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Nevada_Ed
Copper and brass are subject to stress cracking and something called work hardening. It is the reason the flare on generators as well as copper flares in flare fittings get cracks in them after repeated removal and tightening. Also I am not sure how the heating and cooling cycles of use effect the copper, or brass for that matter, but when I salvage a generator, after cleaning, I always re-anneal the metal to reduce work hardening, heat dull red and quench in water.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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chancho
When reading this thread about the concerns of brass vs copper. What I keep thinking of is before people knew what was in brass (copper and zinc, zinc being the unknown material). Gunsmiths would make gun barrels from this metal and fire a charge of like 4 times the amount. If it fired it would get a stamp. If it blew up then the mix of copper and the rock containing zinc was off and they would start over.

There are many different mixtures to come up with brass (including adding aluminum, lead, nickle), brass being just a generic term. Some mixtures are for strength, durability, malleability etc. So to say brass has XYZ characteristics is giving a generic term a specific definition, an oxymoron with in itself.
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Nevada_Ed
Ryan, commercially there are over 24 commonly recognized names/types of brass, Yellow brass, Red Brass, White Brass, Tonval Brass, Admiralty brass, High Brass, Low brass, it goes on and on. Now to find out what Brass most generators use, lol. I think I even heard once before but I can't remember.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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Nevada_Ed
Hi Frank, it is type "L" copper. It is pretty common stuff for "soft" copper, used in refrigeration, plumbing. "M" copper is on the thin side. They do make one even heavier, "K".

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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mikewells

 Real neat project Ed,
  I'm very impressed. 


   Mike
Mike Wells
E Bay user name whitegas5152
ICCC # 1038
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riko
Hi Ed.

A sugestion regarding the swaging down try a bluntened and rounded cutting wheel in a tube cutter
Enrico
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AzWolf
Hey, Ed? You don't happen to be a reloader, do you?
Lee
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Nevada_Ed
Lee,
When I lived in Alaska I had friends that did my re-loads. 35 Whelen, 300 Mag, 30-06.  And John wrote me talking about the generator shell and brass cartridges, out of that came the idea to use a reloader to neck down the outer shell.

Rico,
That is a good idea and I already stumbled on to it!

The generators are performing very well, now have two running and testing, the results warrant finding some brass tubing. I may build a couple more out of copper if I can not locate some brass easily. A couple of them are going to others for some testing.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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chancho
Ed while out shopping today I remembered that some hobby stores have brass tubes.


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Nevada_Ed
Eoooowh! Thank you Ryan, I called around town looking for brass tubing and could not find what I wanted. Looked for a commercial type supply, supply house. About an hour ago I placed an order online for some. I measured the wall thickness of a Coleman generator today too, wanting to sure whatever I got was at least as thick, but with a preference to getting something 25 to 50% thicker, as a margin for safety.

If you go back there please check a few things for me please. Price, type of brass if listed, ie 260 or C260, etc. wall thickness in the 3/8 O.D. size, I am look for at least 0.020 to not more than 0.03, Ideal would be 0.024-0.028.

Is that picture cropped/full sized? If so look and see if you can read the labels, and send me it in an email.

I will get back on the net and look for a hobby store now, or maybe Michael's craft store.

Ed

Note added:
I have since found an online metals store where I could choose wall thickness and sizes better.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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highdesert

Ed, the Fastenal store down off of Parr Blvd might have some too.

Shaun, ICCC #979
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200Apples
Ed, again; brilliant work!



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StanDahl

I would have done that and then realized later that I forgot to put the nut on before I did all of that brazing!

 
I resemble that remark!
 

-
"I intended to take more pics, but I am easily distracted by food and beer and awesomeness."
- bullof7battles, Lake George 2012

Open 1/4 Turn to Left and Light

ICCC #990
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Dmacp
Ed-
That is outstanding. Ever thought about making a ring generator like a petromax?

One thing I have learned about stress cracking, it usually results from impurities inside the metal microstructure-impurities like oxides that continue to corrode long after the metal is manufactured. It happens during the manufacture, not after. The stress causes it to fracture. As far as cold working brass, it does happen very easily, and it is also removed very easily by annealing. You would automatically do this every time you burned a lantern. I do not think that anything anyone is doing will cause stress corrosion or stress cracking in brass unless it is bad brass to begin with.

Some metals do have an inherent problem with stress corrosion. Some high tensile aluminum alloys for example.

Best of luck to you Ed.

Dan MacP


Dan
ICCC member #604
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matthewq4b

Yes most hobby sotares have the K&S metal rack.   I have mentioned this many times on the board for soursing brass tubing brass sqaure stock and sheeting.


I have made new gens from the stuff my local hobby store carries.


Matthew

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chancho
Will do Ed I an out and away from the house right now but will go check back at the hobby store tomorrow.
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chancho
3/8x12" .014 wall is $2.39

I took pictures of the price list. If you want me to e-mail it to you PM me.

Ryan

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Nevada_Ed
Thanks Ryan,

The price is right, but the wall thickness is too thin. I measured some of my Coleman generators with a dial caliber and found them to be .020", I would think I need that as minimum thickness. Already shipped is some I found with a wall thickness of .030" and that should do for them just fine. What I had wanted was .024-.028" but I can't find that on the internet in a small quantity (a few feet). I will send you one in a week or two.

Ed

Note: On one of the two I made I have 40+ hours of run time without a glitch or hint of a problem, very pleased now. I was running both of them daily, all day, then just one of them and didn't light it today, as I am satisfied with the performance.

Many more hours on the lantern and generator now and it is working well, once in a while it requires rotating the pricker. Here is a picture of one that I made the outside shell shorter, just trying to figure out what is necessary, etc.

gen-19.jpg 

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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Nevada_Ed
A couple of these have been used since early 2011, one of them goes camping a lot.

Ed

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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Nevada_Ed
Another concept gen project:
gen2001a.jpg 

gen2002.jpg 

gen2003.jpg 

gen2005.jpg 

gen2006a.jpg 

gen2007a.jpg 


There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Nevada Ed

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