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Alkov
My hunting friend lent me his old 1970's Coleman 220K lantern, but when I went to fire it up it had a hole in the fount. So I tell him it's rusted through and has sprang a leek he tells me to go ahead and just braze it. After disassembling the lantern I look inside with a maglite and confirm its too rusted to fix. So I order a newer condition fount from a guy off eBay. The fount is stripped down and in new but perfect condition. Says 5 - 79 underneath. The old rusty fount says 2- 80 underneath so these parts are all around the same time frame. 
   I completely clean all the old parts up and they are in good condition. I couldn't take off the old valve assembly without possibly damaging it as I currently don't have a bench vise so instead I order the reconditioned part online. While trying to clean the generator I lost that inside stem somewhere so I go ahead and order a brand new old stock generator. 
   So here we go I got a 220K newer part fount, new reconditioned valve assembly, and a brand new generator made for the 220 series. I oil where recommended and use a spot of number 5 thread sealant at the valve assembly/fount connect point. I put new Coleman white fuel and fire it up. It has no leaks and burns bright & runs smoothly. 
 As I was rebuilding this 220K, I also bought a brand new from the hardware store 285A Duel Fuel. 
The Duel Fuel had that nice heat shield. 
I can run the new 285A bright on high even all night with a lot of re-pumping. The fount never gets hot to the touch.
The old 1970's 220K stays bright, even just with a half a turn setting, ( which I figure is normal ). I don't have to re-pump it for it to stay bright (the 285A needs a re-pumping every 20 minutes or so). 
But between 20 minutes to a half hour the 1970's 220K gets so hot that the top of the fount is even very hot. If I pick it up from the fount the top of the fount feels like its burning my fingers. So I shut it off. 
I have fired it up a couple of times now but it gets so hot after 20 minutes to a half hour I always have to shut it off. I'm almost afraid of it now. 
My dad had one of these 220Ks when I was a kid. I can remember it would burn all night with a very bright light and he would only have to go pump it up every 45 minutes or so. I do not believe that the fount should be getting this hot though. Am I missing something? Or is this just normal?
Daniel Alkov
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Ridge Runner

>>The old 1970's 220K stays bright, even just with a half a turn setting, ( which I figure is normal ).


Can you share what you are setting at half a turn?

After the “1/4 turn open to light”, the 220-types are really designed to run properly with the fuel valve knob wide open, and the tip cleaner lever in the down position.

You could possibly be throwing off the fuel/air mixture and causing it to run lean and hotter than normal.

Edit: Oops—Welcome to the CCF! Also, just wondering, what size mantles are you running?

— L.J.
Looking for 10/2015 & 1/2020 B-Day Lanterns
I love the smell of naphtha in the morning!
"Ain’t no need to watch where I’m goin’; just need to know where I’ve been" -Tow Mater

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Alkov

("You could possibly be throwing off the fuel/air mixture and causing it to run lean and hotter than normal.")

 
To light it initially I opened the valve, ya like half a turn, the 6 o'clock position then I set it one full turn open. But later I thought by turning it down more that the light would dim like it does on the 285A but it <-(the 220K) doesn't seem to respond to much to oping or closing the valve except to shut it off. 
Daniel Alkov
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Coldwaterpaddler
The 220 main valve doesn't connect to the tip-cleaner needle vie eccentric block which allows the dimming, but 285 probably does (I don't own one, but it is the newer design). You can perform the same function by turning the tip-cleaning lever to dim the 220 lantern.

As for heat, in addition to not opening the valve all the way (as noted earlier), it may be that the fount doesn't have very much fuel in it to act as a heat sink, plus it may be warm where you are testing it and finally, you may not have much air flow over the lantern.

I've had 220s get hot, but it's typically when I'm indoors, that is, testing in a garage, or hanging in a wood-stove-heated canvas wall tent.
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
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Alkov
("The 220 main valve doesn't connect to the tip-cleaner needle vie eccentric block which allows the dimming, but 285 probably does (I don't own one, "(but it is the newer design). You can perform the same function by turning the tip-cleaning lever to dim the 220 lantern.")

Invaluable input. Thanks I will try these suggestions . It is true I just left the tip-cleaning lever in the down position. I'm from New Mexico but I'm in Bakersfield right now, at night its still in the low 90's , 111 during the day and no wind at night. (I have kept the fount full of fuel).
Daniel Alkov
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Ridge Runner

Ok, so the 285A has a totally different fuel delivery system and tip cleaning operation than the older ones like your K. The 285A is also designed to be adjustable whereas the K is not.

The Ks and older 220-types are designed to light at 1/4 turn open. Then, after the mantles burn bright and there is no flames present the valve is supposed to be opened all the way to cut off the start circuit air and supply straight fuel to the generator.

At that point more air can be pumped in to the increase brightness and replace air used up during the lighting process. I usually start with 25-35 pumps to light then add another 10-20 after it’s warmed up for a couple minutes.

Are you running 21A mantles? Or something larger/longer that could be placing additional heat closer to the bottom of the frame?

— L.J.
Looking for 10/2015 & 1/2020 B-Day Lanterns
I love the smell of naphtha in the morning!
"Ain’t no need to watch where I’m goin’; just need to know where I’ve been" -Tow Mater

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Alkov
Yes I have the proper 21A mantle. After using the 285A first it leads one to believe that the 220K should respond the same so ya Its good to hear from you guys that it does not. Also yes I ran it at half open and even at 1/4 open believing wrongly that it should burn lower with less heat this way.
I will try running it full open & just it down from the tip cleaning lever. See if that fixes the overheating of the fount. 
Daniel Alkov
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mnhogrider

There has been ongoing discussions about It being a bad idea using the tip cleaner to dim lanterns that aren’t supposed to be dimmed.  The reasoning was that it’ll enlarge the orifice in the gas tip by forcing gas/fuel through a made smaller opening. I don’t know if it’s true and weather you agree or not, your 220 was meant to run wide open with the valve all the way open. Don’t want it so bright? Don’t pump it up so much. 

 I’ve never had 220K fount get real hot. Maybe running in the real hot weather is doing it. 

Steve
ICCC Member #1396 
BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #017
Mack, Cat and Cadillac.
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zoomkat
if you want to adjust the output of the 220, use the pricker rod lever. If it ever starts to over burn, then you just get another generator, which are still available at some sporting stores. I'm not sure about the wearing of the generator orifice due to throttling the pricker rod. I think it is in the "urban legend" category. 
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JimL
Welcome to the forum.

As stated above, your 285 is an 'adjustable' lantern.  Coleman does this with the use of a Schrader valve in the fuel pickup, and the tip cleaning wire in the generator.  

If you want to go a longer period between pumps, don't fill the fount, but only fill to about half-way.  The extra air space will make a big difference.  If you want to run it dim, your best bet is to pump it up much less so it has lower pressure.  Try 10 pumps to start, give or take, depending on how full the fount is.  If you want it brighter, add one pump at a time and evaluate.  If too bright, you can shut the lantern down and bleed off a little pressure*.  To do this, when you shut it down, you'll need to wait a minute or two as fuel is still vaporizing in the generator.  Even though it may look to be completely out, it takes a while.  Lanterns and stoves don't shut off like a light switch, and cranking down on the valve stem won't make it shut off faster, but may lead to damaging the valve stem.  Just letting you know in case you weren't aware.  I think many of us have gotten lanterns with a grove in the stem where it shuts off fuel flow from a previous owner thinking it isn't shutting off and cranking on the valve stem too much.    You could 'try' using the tip cleaner to dim it, but this was not Coleman's intent with the older, non-adjustable lanterns.  Plus, generators aren't built to the tolerance that it's guaranteed to work.  Some lanterns will dim, some will shut off, and some it will make no difference.

*If you bleed the pressure with the lantern running and the fumes make it to the mantles, you might get a really exciting fireball.   When I say exciting, I don't mean this in a positive way.  🙂

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
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Rustytank
I've have a couple of the older E/F series lanterns and to me they just seem to get hotter. I have attributed it to the pricker valve assembly being above the burner frame and exposed to more heat and transfering that heat to the fount. I don't have any older than that series to compare to but my newer series with the pricker under the burner frame aren't as hot when they run. I don't know if they get as hot as op's lantern but they get hotter than my others.
275 Appreciation Syndicate #0245
Looking for birthday lanterns 11/58, 3/68, 3/73, 11/96, 6/97, 11/97, 12/00
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Ridge Runner

>>at night its still in the low 90's , 111 during the day and no wind at night.

I guess I didn’t give it much thought at first, but  yea, that’s pretty darn hot outside, too!

Heck, in this corner of New England, if it hits 90+ for three days in a row it’s a heat wave. After that panic typically starts to set in and public cooling centers begin to open!

— L.J.
Looking for 10/2015 & 1/2020 B-Day Lanterns
I love the smell of naphtha in the morning!
"Ain’t no need to watch where I’m goin’; just need to know where I’ve been" -Tow Mater

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Alkov
OK I am going to try n fire her up , Its a cool 94 out right now due to the overcast from all the smoke. I will get back with what happens but I will shut lantern again if its seems to me to be running to hot. I'm used to heat in El Paso but its always a dry windy heat there, for some reason Bakersfield California just seem so much worse to me I'm not sure why? 

This post is about a hot fount so anything else is fun but what about the hot fount?
Daniel Alkov
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74HARLEY
Most likely it's nothing to worry about. One thing to do is to check the bottom of the mantles and make sure there are no holes. Holes cause a fire jet that can create hot spots.
Joe
looking for 200a 11-56,9-77,2-65 Coleman 275 appreciation syndicate member #0004 ICCC #1262
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Alkov
Ok ya you guys are great together. So I took everyones advice and mixed it. Here is what I've learned and done. (1) The 220K does not operate like a 285A.  (2) The first tries I pumped it up 30 times burned it just a little then pumped it up 30 times again. This led it to become over-pressurized. (3) This led it to burn way too hot, & I had only opened the valve half of one turn. So counter to modern 285A logic by opening the valve even more it evened out the flow. (4) In this over pressurized situation It was useful to use the tip cleaner lever to force the flame down to a lower burning slower burning flow but with the main valve fully open until the gas tank depressurized some. Once it stabilized at a slower burn after while I slowly let the tip cleaner lever to full down position, (per its operating instructions) (5) now I just pump it as needed. 

The 285A needs a lot of extra pumping to keep burning bright, when you start with a 285A then it trains you to over pump the 220K over-pressurizing it and seeming to led to a runaway situation where the entire unit overheats to a dangerous level.

The 220K fount is still warmer than the 285A because there is no heat shield but it doent seem anything dangerous anymore.

As a note to others anyone experiencing the same thing you have "to learn to read" the gas-flow of the older models and the newer models are more idiot proof but require much more pumping to keep burning bright.
Daniel Alkov
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zoomkat
"This post is about a hot fount so anything else is fun but what about the hot fount?"

Well, you probably need to find a way to measure the temperature of the 220K tank so others can make a comparison to their lantern temperatures. The 285A has a heat shield because the valve assembly has rubber O-rings and plastic parts that might degrade at the temperatures the 220K and older lanterns may reach when running. Your 220K apparently now is a mix of parts, so things may be hard to trouble shoot. There are two main things that generally control the output of a normally operating lantern, 1) the pressure in the tank, and 2) the size of the generator orifice. There might be an remote outside possibility you might installed an incorrect generator. That being said, from what you posted, I'm not sure you understand the correct start up procedure for the 220K lantern. As to the 285A having to be pumped frequently, maybe you do not have the fuel cap snug and it is leaking. The 285A will require more frequent pumping than a 220K if the 285A tank is smaller than the 220K tank. That is just the physics for lanterns of similar output, but with differing tank sizes. 
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JimL
>>This post is about a hot fount so anything else is fun but what about the hot fount?

Daniel,

I missed this comment earlier, but am quite confident that if anyone here was concerned about the temperature, they would have immediately jumped in to help you resolve it.  Coleman may not have wasted anything and would sometimes use leftover parts from one model on the start of the next model, but no one would accuse them of ever cutting corners to make a few extra pennies.  I consider Coleman founts to be pretty hefty, and why heat is not a concern.

If you think your 220 is hot, just know that the 502 stove has a well deserved reputation for running hot.  Really hot, not just a perceived hot.  Out of curiosity, when using mine once, I broke out my laser thermometer to check the temps.  See the first post here:
https://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/502-temps-10194679?pid=1309072163&


-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
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Alkov
"Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?" 

That could even be this forums title. 

Wow, The older model beats the newer model by far. The 220 is a hard technology. The DOD should make a contract with Coleman to make these for the US Army. When there is a EMP in the field this should be issue to keep the fight going. 

The 285 is like a toy in comparison. 

Why did they ever stop making this old model? Dam 
Daniel Alkov
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Gasman64
[welcome], Daniel, from Pennsylvania!  Good to see you got plenty of help; I was busy at work.
Steve
ICCC #1012




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Coldwaterpaddler
Here's something that maybe isn't too goofy. The 285 has the plastic F/A tube, while the 220 uses the metal F/A tube. So, with the plastic F/A tube (plastic typically has a higher thermal resistance than metals) less heat is transferred to the fuel. The 220, being all metal would more easily transfer the fuel into the fuel and therefore the fount making it somewhat warmer. Just a thought.
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
Quote
Chucker
Alkov wrote:
"Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?" 

Why did they ever stop making this old model? Dam 



Cost. Those are larger, thicker, and just more metal. 

Also, you NEED to run the 220K wide open. In your most recent post you say you ran it "half of one turn" - not enough. You are likely still getting a lot of fount air which is making it run leaner (hotter) than if you are fully open. Also the possibility of a hole or two in a mantle shooting hot jets downward was made above - very possible especially if you are using the modern Coleman mantles.

Welcome to the forum. Good to have you here. 
Chuck
"...we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Romans 5:3-4
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Alkov
Saturday August 22, 2020. 07:30 PM to 10:00 PM 

285A needs 30 to 60 re-pumping about every 20 minutes to stay bright. Model 220K is chugging along with only 10 pumps about 40 minutes after initial light. 285 has about 1/3rd a tank but was operating the same on a full tank. 220K is at 1/2 tank, vary bright light. White gas Coleman fuel in both tanks, standerd 21 Mantel on both.

The 220 ran for 4 hours with minimal pumping the other night, then tonight on same tank ran for 2, 1/2 hours with only 10 pumps in the middle of run, what a champ, still around 1/2 a tank. 

My opinion now is 220 is a mans tool. 

If nothing else but to support the Coleman brand buy the 285A by all means, but! we really need to put pressure on Coleman to re-make the original 220 models, yes with more brass parts like the older models 220.

I wanted to start a new 285 vs. 220 thread but then why bother when there's already this going? 

any thoughts to add to this much appreciated. 

Thanks,
Daniel Alkov
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Rustytank
You really shouldn't have to be pumping the 285 that much. I suspect a Schrader valve or fuel pickup problem there.
275 Appreciation Syndicate #0245
Looking for birthday lanterns 11/58, 3/68, 3/73, 11/96, 6/97, 11/97, 12/00
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Alkov
Could be? I will look into that , but it is brand new out of the box, I never had tampered with it like I had to with the 220.
Daniel Alkov
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JimL
You can pretty much forget Coleman going back to making the older style lanterns.   Due to lack of demand, there aren't even many models currently being produced.  People initially went to propane, but have since gotten away from it for the convenience and safety of LED.   For those afraid of working with fuels, I think it's the right decision for those people to avoid them.  I don't agree with getting away from CF or propane, but understand it.   Heck, I bet most young folks today likely couldn't handle a vehicle without power steering and power brakes, and would probably think the car is broken and/or dangerous.

I too am thinking Schrader.  You should be able to get a Schrader tool for a couple bucks and then try tweaking the Schrader by screwing it in or out very little at a time.  Experiment by opening and closing the valve to observe fuel flow before lighting.  If the valve is to far out, the lantern may not shut off and you'll have to let it run until it's out of fuel.  Opening the fuel cap to drain pressure can be a very bad thing.  I've got a few 285's and have not seen the behavior you are experiencing.

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
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Alkov
"I've got a few 285's and have not seen the behavior you are experiencing." 

That is a good thing, I suppose I need to go and trouble-shoot this new machine like I did the old machine before I judge the intended operation of the  new lantern. 

Coleman could re-produce 220 for the retro market and also the survivalist/prepar crowd. If I want an LED I will just go with maglite, why would I wast my time with an LED Coleman? Coleman should focus on their loyal specialist consumers however small. And those who want to just seem cool and hipster will listen to those who actually know Coleman for its utilitarian value and buy the best gas lantern just because that's what Coleman is known for. Why re-invent the wheel ? 
Daniel Alkov
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JimL
Keep in mind that Coleman is a business, and if they spent the time, money, and resources to sell a dozen lanterns, they'd be heading out of business quickly.  Coleman does its best to provide for the desires of the market. 

Hit some flea markets and yard sales.  I think you'll see mostly 220 lanterns.  The most I will now pay for a 220 is $5, but only if it has a globe and I happen to need one at the time.  228's are more desirable, but the last one I got was $2, because it had no globe, and the previous two I got were given to me.  There's really not a market for Coleman to retool and begin making these again.

-Jim

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?


I've missed you!  But I'm reloading.
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Leviticus Tomethreus
If they made a new 220, I wouldn’t buy it unless it was the E style, or nickel. I’d rather have a 228 anyway.
My friends don’t call me “Lantern/lampie Levi”
for nothin’,if they did call me that.

Looking for bday lanterns 8/38, 8/41, 
10/25, and 8/07

The biggest lie I tell myself is
”I don’t need to write that down, I’ll remember it.”
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zoomkat
"285A needs 30 to 60 re-pumping about every 20 minutes to stay bright."

Well, I have to ask, but do you close the pump needle valve after you finish pumping? Sounds like a leaking pump needle valve or fuel cap. I don't think the issue is the Schrader valve. If you can pump it 60 times, that raises some questions.
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Leviticus Tomethreus
Nice to meet you Superman, with that super pumping strength.
My friends don’t call me “Lantern/lampie Levi”
for nothin’,if they did call me that.

Looking for bday lanterns 8/38, 8/41, 
10/25, and 8/07

The biggest lie I tell myself is
”I don’t need to write that down, I’ll remember it.”
Quote
Alkov
I bought the 285 because I saw it on the shelf at a the local mom and pop hardware store. Then I saw that Walmart had some Coleman replacement parts, fuel, mantels but no lanterns. Then at Home Depo there was nothing Coleman , also no Colemans at Lowes. 

So anyone remembering to buy a Coleman lantern won't because the don't see it on shelves. The people who think randomly to themselves "hey I need that" won't go out looking for one if they don't see it. 

Then I'm with my gf at Costco and there I see Coleman everything, ice-chests, folding chairs, tents, but of course no gas-lanterns. 
Sales of gas lanterns might be slow but if people don't see it on the shelf . . . 
Daniel Alkov
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Pancholoco1911

Alkov wrote:
I bought the 285 because I saw it on the shelf at a the local mom and pop hardware store. Then I saw that Walmart had some Coleman replacement parts, fuel, mantels but no lanterns. Then at Home Depo there was nothing Coleman , also no Colemans at Lowes. 

So anyone remembering to buy a Coleman lantern won't because the don't see it on shelves. The people who think randomly to themselves "hey I need that" won't go out looking for one if they don't see it. 

Then I'm with my gf at Costco and there I see Coleman everything, ice-chests, folding chairs, tents, but of course no gas-lanterns. 
Sales of gas lanterns might be slow but if people don't see it on the shelf . . . 


good point and I completely agree with you. 

im from McFarland so around 28 miles north from you. I know where is a moms and pops shop with 286’s, powerhouse, 288’s but no parts just mantles. 

saw Them hanging from the store and the 286 was relatively priced well $69 

~Pancho~
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hikerduane
Myself, I don't go looking at HD, Costco or WM for real camping stuff.  They may cater to once a year campers.
Duane
Duane-All seasons, year round backpacker and camper.  So many stoves and lanterns, who's counting.
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Rustytank
I wonder if your fuel cap gasket is bad. Take a q-tip and smear some vaseline around on that gasket real good. It will temporarily soften the rubber and improve the seal. Your lantern may have sat so long the gasket dried out. 
If that slows down on the need to pump up you can get a new gasket from our host. 
275 Appreciation Syndicate #0245
Looking for birthday lanterns 11/58, 3/68, 3/73, 11/96, 6/97, 11/97, 12/00
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