200A and 202 reproduction
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fishinjimmy919
This 1/63 200A is frustrating me...  I cannot get it to get fuel to the chamber.  Generator is dry.  When I got the lantern the F/A tube was 'free spinning' on the tube nut.  I thought this might be the problem so I ordered a replacement tube.  With that installed I tried again.  Same issue, hissin' but no fuel spit.  With generator off and valve open it still hisses but no fuel.  Any suggestions from here?
200.1.jpg 
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Tgarner01
How long are you waiting for fuel? How full is the fount? On lanterns that don't want to instant light I give the generator a preheat with a butane torch and open the valve all the way. Should be strait fuel with valve open completely. Also try shaking it turning the lantern on its side when you hear just hissing. New f/a tube should have fixed all these issues...
Toby Garner
ICCC #1939
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fishinjimmy919
I've waited all the way till it depressurizes.  I will try the pre-heat full throttle approach to see if I get anything. I will also try shaking it and turning on its side.  Concerns me that no liquid coming out of block (just pressure).
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25 502s
So when you test it without the generator on are you opening the valve completely to check for liquid fuel?
Jason
not looking for any more Bday gpas. Honestly, if you have a 10-72 don’t let me know about it.
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0214
Coleman Slant Saver #56
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #31
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fishinjimmy919
Just tried all of the above suggestions.  I finally got liquid fuel (both with and without generator attached) after cranking valve all the way open AND pumping.  When I saw the generator spitting I re-assembled and gave it a test fire.  It did spit and fire at 1/4 turn although the burn was weak and pulsing.  I shut her down and let it cool.  I tried normal startup procedure again and all I got was hiss.  When valve opened all the way up it finally spit.  Is this a pressure issue?
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Tgarner01
That's an issue with your f/a tube. Take a tooth pick and clean the end of the fuel pickup tube good. Then take some 0000 steel wool and clean the end of the metering rod till shiny and should fix you up. I usually stretch the little spring a coil length as well.
Toby Garner
ICCC #1939
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fishinjimmy919
Toby, I just tried that as well.  The F/A tube I put in this morning was a new reproduction from OCP.  The metering rod was pretty slick already but I shined it up a little more.  It seemed to feed into the hole at end of pickup tube easy enough.  Once assembled I still have same issue.  No liquid at 1/4 turn on startup.  I do get liquid gas at and near full throttle but was not able to keep it going this time.  There does seem to be adequate pressure in the tank based on the "woosh" I get when crackin open the fuel cap.  Could this be a seating issue with the spindle? I am at a loss.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Jimmy
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Tgarner01
Did you replace your cap gasket? Oil the pump leather and make sure it's pumping strong. With a full tank of fuel I'm guessing 40-50 pumps, probably less will give you significant pump resistance. 
Toby Garner
ICCC #1939
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Tgarner01
https://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/basic-lantern-diagnostics-10620466?pid=1312372584

Give this a read, Outlaw went to a lot of work for these kind of problems
Toby Garner
ICCC #1939
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zoomkat
Note that the fuel control rod spring goes on the under side of the fuel control rod collar (not on top) so that it pushes the fuel control rod up as the fuel control valve opens. Also beware of modifying things before you know what the issue is.
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fishinjimmy919
Thanks for the article link.  It is a good read...  Also thanks for the words of wisdom zoomkat!

The gasket in fuel cap is new, as is generator and F/A tube.  Metering rod spring is in correct position.  No mods tried other than shining up the fuel metering rod with steel wool.  I tried using a (known) good one-piece fuel cap with same result.  Pump leather is oiled and appears to be getting adequate pressure.  No leaks on dunk test.  With everything re-assembled I still only get liquid fuel spit at full throttle.
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zoomkat
Was the inner fuel pickup tube lose where it connects to the bottom of the fuel valve assembly? An air leak there might cause what you are seeing.
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25 502s
With a 1/4 turn or even a little more all you are going to get is air and with the generator off I think you will loose pressure quickly. I would put the generator on, pump it up good and completely open the valve and see if you get a good stream of fuel out the gen tip. I don’t know but it sounds like the valve itself may be worn out. 
Jason
not looking for any more Bday gpas. Honestly, if you have a 10-72 don’t let me know about it.
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0214
Coleman Slant Saver #56
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #31
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fishinjimmy919
The pickup tube on the old F/A tube was free spinning (the nut portion was tight to the valve body)  thus the replacement from OCP.  The new F/A tube seems to mate nicely to the valve assembly.  With the generator on and pumped up it still only begins to squirt near open throttle. That's why I'm wondering if the valve spindle might be seated too deep or incorrectly?  No leakage around the valve and graphite packing seems to be in good shape.  Thanks again everybody for helping out.
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zoomkat
"That's why I'm wondering if the valve spindle might be seated too deep or incorrectly? "

Probably not unless somebody in the past messed it up. If you take the valve assembly out again, you can cycle the fuel control valve open/closed and verify the fuel control valve extends/retracts in the fuel pickup orifice as expected.  
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Leviticus Tomethreus
     @fishinjimmy919 I may not know how to help, but I love the name of the thread.
My friends don’t call me “Lantern/lampie Levi”
for nothin’,if they did call me that.

Looking for bday lanterns 8/38, 8/41, 
10/25, and 8/07

The biggest lie I tell myself is
”I don’t need to write that down, I’ll remember it.”
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D421
I just looked at the picture in the 1st post. The packing nut looks like it is not on far enough. May be keeping the F/A function from working.  Can you close the valve and stop the air coming out. 

This would kill my theory.
Everyone likes the dog catcher...until they catch your dog.
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fishinjimmy919
Thanks Leviticus!  D421... when the valve is closed the hissin' stops.  Also no bubbles around the valve on dunk test.  I am thinking about frankensteining my working 200A and testing it part by part until I figure it out.  
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D421
Hmmm?  You have stumped the chumps.
Everyone likes the dog catcher...until they catch your dog.
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outlawmws
With the main valve out, FA and genny off, does the valve flow properly (open and closed...)?  (Blow test)

Same for the genny can you blow through it? (orifice off)

Same for the F/A  (mount it and blow down from the top - (if it won't flow down, it won't flow up  - no oe way valve here...) 
  • Do this 1/4 turn open and close the bottom with your finger - Flow? it should when 1/4 open.  - cover the air bleed hole, try again the bottom should flow (still 1/4 open)
  • open all the way - ALL you should have is flow to the bottom pickup.

add parts one at a time to see what happens.  last part to add is the orifice...

If all test OK.  mount the valve,

Hmm Had a thought  -is the top of the fount caved in at all? - you may be plugging the bottom of the F/A with the bottom of the fount?

Back to the testing:

Fill the tank!  Now, test sitting flat.  gurgle at 1/4"  no?  open it all the way -anything? No?  is the pressure gone (crack the fuel cap)  good pressure?  remove the genny, open the valve all the way - ANYTHING?

if no, SOMETHING is blocking the F/A  (it may be seated on the bottom - see above comment)
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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zoomkat
"When I got the lantern the F/A tube was 'free spinning' on the tube nut."

The tube nut probably pushes on the fuel pickup tube to make a leak tight compression fit, maybe somewhat like the generator nut does for the generator tube. You might check there to see if there is any leakage thru that fit up.
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Tigerfans2
The outer tube spinning on the f/a with the f/a snugged up tight is not a problem nor uncommon. Try running it as a Quicklite by removing the f/a rod and spring and preheating the generator as you do on your Quicklites. 
Coleman Slant Saver #58
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #8
Coleman Blues 243's #16
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outlawmws
Isn't that going to introduce a permanent air leak in the fuel flow?
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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Tigerfans2
?
Removing the rod approximates a kero pickup. The air input holes in the bottom of the f/a inner tube are shut off by fuel in that inner tube.

The inner tube in the f/a being loose would allow air to always go to the valve, that would be bad.
The outer tube being loose is no biggee. See the air hole directly below the top of the outer tube? Air goes in there..air goes in where the outer tube is Crimped..sameo sameo. And crimping isn't that hot for sealing even if the tube doesn't rotate
Coleman Slant Saver #58
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #8
Coleman Blues 243's #16
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fishinjimmy919
Thanks everyone for assistance in this pesky 200A.  I haven't had a lot of time to do more troubleshooting but I did have a few minutes to see if she would fire up last night.  1/4 turn open, hissing but no fuel spit (just like it has been doing since I got it).  I decided to power through.  I know that at or just near full throttle I get liquid vapor in the chamber so I opened her all the way.  At the first sign of spit I light it up.  She belched flame and black smoke like there was way too much fuel.  I turned and tuned the valve to try to control the flame ball/smoke to see if I could get a good burn.  After about 2 minutes of constant adjustment the (extraneous) flame settled down and no more black smoke.  Crank over to full throttle and still good.  The mantel had a good burn going with no flicker or pulse.  I decided to run it for a few hours to see if there was any change.  It didn't.  She did an an awful long shut down however.  I still don't know how she will run on the next fire-up but I intend to try her again tonight.

lit 500.jpg 
Thanks again for everyone's input!

Jimmy
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zoomkat
Something you might try similar to when the tank doesn't have a lot of fuel in it. With the lantern pumped up and ready to go, go full open on the fuel control valve, wait two or three seconds, then go full closed on the valve. This should put some priming fuel in the fuel pickup system and maybe generator. Then try a normal 1/4 turn open start. If things go ok, then you should get some fuel for the lantern to start and heat the generator. If the lantern burns some heating the generator but starts to go out, then open the fuel control valve up fully to start feeding more fuel.
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Tigerfans2
At ~1/4 turn the valve is open but the f/a rod is still in the hole in the bottom center of the f/a. The diameter of the (clean) hole is barely larger than the diameter of the rod. Because it this Some fuel is pushed up but not enough to close off the hole in the bottom of the inner f/a tube between it and the outer tube. Air enters the inner tube along with that small amount of fuel kinda,sorta mixing before it hits the (initially) cold generator which can't heat the fuel into a gaseous state. This kinda, sorta mixture flows through the generator into the mixing chamber (making the spitting or sputtering noise) where it mixes with air from the air tube and from there into the mantles. It kinda, sorta burns without the glow But also without dripping raw fuel. After a bit the generator heats up, the fuel/air mixture from the fuel/air tube is transformed into a gaseous state in the generator allowing one to fully open the valve which retracts the rod allowing enough fuel to enter the inner tube and cover/close off that lower hole between the inner and outer tubes, no more air.
Coleman Slant Saver #58
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #8
Coleman Blues 243's #16
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outlawmws
I've had a couple lanterns that are fussy to start and don't want to draw fuel at 1/4 turn.  

I open about a turn, maybe a turn and a half and the second it starts to gurgle I turn it off,  

Light the match, insert  the match (you may get a little quick flash) and open a quarter turn and its good to go, maybe a little extra flame drama at start, but manageable.  

Remember much past 1/4 turn and the start circuit is off.  You don't need to open all the way to "prime" it...
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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Coldwaterpaddler
@fishinjimmy919 did you get it to start up correctly, yet? I had this same issue on a guy's 1967 220F lantern earlier this week. I checked all of the things you checked. Heard the hiss of air, but no fuel. Tore the lantern down and cleaned everything and replaced the fuel cap gasket. Reassembled it and same problem. Ultimately, it was the check valve. I pumped it up and heard a hiss of air escape if I opened the cap, though not too a loud hiss, but thought that it was good enough. It was not. In reality, because the check valve ball wasn't sealing correctly, I wasn't getting the pressure I thought I was after pumping it 30-40 times. I replaced the check valve, because no amount of cleaning would make it seal, and it worked like a champ! I couldn't believe it. You've checked everything else and replaced the F/A tube, so this could be your issue???

When the valve is only opened a quarter turn that control rod is still blocking the F/A tube opening, like it should, but it takes a lot of pressure to move that fuel up to the generator. When you open the valve all the way the restriction is gone so you get lots of fuel.

If you don't have a check valve removal tool or a spare check valve, remove the pump and check valve stem, tilt the lantern at an angle, and spray carb cleaner in there and let it soak for an hour or so. Then, empty it out, re-assemble and give it a try.
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
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fishinjimmy919
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info.  I have removed the check valve and hit it with Kroil oil and ensured that the bb moves.  There were no bubbles or leaks from the pump area on the dunk test.  I am able to get the lantern lit but only when the valve is near full open will it light.  Then I fight the black smoke and flame belch until it stabilizes.  

I can try replacing the CV though and see if it makes a difference.  I have a few spares.

Thanks,
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zoomkat
"I can try replacing the CV though and see if it makes a difference.  I have a few spares."

I think the check valve is just a dead end rabbit hole you are in. If you pump the tank up and it holds pressure, then the check valve is most likely not the issue. When you say the lantern finally stabilizes, are you saying it operates as expected after that? If you are having trouble getting it started, make sure you have a full tank of gas. Do you have other lanterns that start up as expected using the same starting sequence/technique?
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fishinjimmy919
When I say that it stabilizes I meant that it operates as normal.  Firstly, though, i fight my way through the excess fuel issue with it opened up all the way.  It will not light at all until almost full-open valve.  I am operating around 1/2 tank of gas.  As far as starting sequence goes, my other lanterns fire up and "spit" at 1/4 turn with appropriate pressure.  Once I hear the "spit" I can ignite the mantles.  Then after generator is heated up a little I open all the way.  No issues with other lanterns.  This pesky 200A holds pressure, no observable leaks, will hiss through the generator at 1/4 turn but nothing will ignite the mantle until almost full-open.  I realize at full open I am introducing more gas than is necessary (and it belches flame and black smoke) but this is the only way I've gotten it to stay lit.
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zoomkat
"I am operating around 1/2 tank of gas."

I suggest you try a normal start with a full tank of gas. A basic rule of thumb is that you will only get half the gas at the 1/4 turn position as you would get with a full tank of gas at the 1/4 turn position. The initial static fuel level in the fuel pickup tube is very important in a normal 1/4 turn startup sequence. Try it and see.
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outlawmws
Something is wrong with the FA IMO.  partly clogged,  parts worn, wrong parts inside... Something ....

Can you tale 2 FA's and compare them side by side; this one and one from a known good 200?
[Logo%20Outlaw-half] 
Coleman Blue's 243's #341 - 275 Appreciation Syndicate member 0242
FAS #001 Confusing Future Generations of Collectors, One Lantern at a Time!

“A Human Being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, give orders, take orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook  a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.”            - Lazarus Long


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Coldwaterpaddler
@fishinjimmy919, my concern about the check valve was related the check valve ball and how it seals, not the check valve stem. If you performed the dunk test with the check valve stem fully closed, then the only thing proved there is that there are no pump tube leaks and no stem leaks, but it doesn't say anything about the quality of the check valve's function, that is, to allow air in, but to not let air back out. That's why I suggested it. Since you have replaced the check valve with a new one and got the same result then you can probably rule this out. A couple of questions. Was the check valve a new one with the new stem or an old one? My first check valve replacement this week was with a different, but used, check valve. It turned out, it also leaked. It was only when I replaced it with a new one that I knew for sure it was the check valve. I assume that you also, cycled the pump 50-60 times, and held your thumb lightly over over the pump hole to check if the fount pressure pushed the pump plunger back out? If good, it should not.

I'm also assuming that the pump leather is oiled and in good condition.

For yet another opinion, but probably not that different than the others, this is what I do:
Let's step back for a minute and think about this simply. This is a GPA (Gas Pressure Appliance). There needs to be a path for the gas to get from the fuel supply to the burner, and there needs to be pressure. IMO - It's actually a pretty simple system. So, the two things to check are related to the fuel flow and pressure in the fount. That's it. If it still doesn't work, then we've missed or misunderstood something.

Pressure. You've pressurized the lantern, pumping 50-60 times? This is above normal, but is only for testing. And, when you open the cap, you get a nice loud hiss of air escaping, right? If so, The fount is all good, including the check valve. No further need to think about gaskets, seals, check valves and pump cups.

Fuel delivery. If the pressure is good then you must have an issue with fuel delivery, which includes everything from the F/A tube all the way to the mantle burner tube. But to complicate matters, you only have fuel delivery issues at startup. As, @outlawmws noted, the device responsible for Coleman's Instant Lighting system is the F/A tube and the rod that goes down the middle and the spring. However, you said that you replaced this with a new one. Did you use the new fuel control rod or did you use the old one with the new F/A tube? If you used the old one, then it could be varnished and could be plugging the new F/A tube in the quarter turn position.

Observation really helps to provide immediate feedback as you've already seen and since we've missed something, I suggest removing the bail, vent, globe and burner assembly/frame. It's only one nut to remove to get this far as you already know. Pump to normal pressure and open the valve a quarter turn and hold a rag a few inches over the generator tip. What happens? Now, open the valve all the way. What happens now? Next remove the generator and perform the same test. It should seem like spitting and gurgling when opened only a quarter turn because this is an air/fuel mix (more air than fuel in my observations), and give it at least 10 seconds of this test to see if the fuel stops. When the valve is open fully it will be mostly or maybe all fuel.

Earlier, you said that the F/A tube's outer tube was free spinning, which is actually okay according to a Certified Coleman Repairman I talked to a few years ago. After all, there is already a large hole, and sometimes two, already in the side of the outer F/A tube. Lack of an air-tight seal at the top just means that there is more access to air. That's what he told me and it seems you may have confirmed this with your tests that there is no difference.

So . . . what did we learn? If some fuel spitting is observed with the generator removed for 10-20 seconds, then the problem is likely above the valve (generator, mixing chamber, burner tube, burner cap). If no fuel is observed (only hissing air), then the problem is between the top of the valve and below. Which is it?
Stovie-Steve
"Don't let the weather run your life" - Steve
The Coleman Blues - #95
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