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Tony Press
What do we know about who manufactured Coleman lamps and stoves in Australia? And when?

What I know so far is that in 1930, Australia held a Tariff Board Inquiry into raising the tariff on imported lamps to 30%.

Australian manufacturers of lamps were in favour; importers of overseas lamps were not, and argued that Australian manufacturers could not supply the volume, especially that required for the rural market.

I don't know the outcome of the inquiry (yet).

So at that stage, no Coleman lamps or stoves were manufactured in Australia - they were imported from Coleman Canada.

Fast forward to 1950, noting the intervention of the Great Depression and World War II.

In early 1950 the Coleman Lamp and Stove Co. Ltd. of Canada announced that it was not going to build a factory in Adelaide (South Australia) because the skilled labour and materials required were in short supply, and the market was too small.

In late 1950 the following was reported in the Melbourne Age:

"Colton, Palmer and Preston Ltd. of Adelaide, has obtained a
tie up with the Coleman Lamp and Stove Co, Ltd., Toronto, Canada, for manufacture of a range of kerosene and petrol-
burning appliances for domestic lighting and heating".

There the trail ends for me (so far), but Coleman products like the Australian made Coleman No. 249 Scout and various stoves were manufactured under licence from Coleman Canada:

http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/...

http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/coleman-twin- burner-ker...

What I don't know is when and for how long, and whether Adelaide was the sole place of manufacture.

There are a couple of comments at Classic Camp Stoves that Austramax in Melbourne manufactured Coleman products in the 1950s but I can't find direct evidence of this.

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Best regards

Tony





Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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warren
Welcome!  I am interested in your research, please keep us posted.

Have you heard of the C J Thomas Company?  Some of us have a catalog from them and they are listed as "Coleman Quicklite Company of Australia PTY LTD"  It talks about "Coleman for over 50 years" and lists 5 factories, but they are all in US or Canada.

I assume the catalog is 1950s.  It lists the 238B and 237, etc



ANTIQUESWV on Ebay
#1 in the 223B club
Gatlinburg, TN

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Guff
A very good question, Tony, and also one I would like to know the answer to. It is a real shame that as well as the lack of documated information on the Coleman Australia connection, there is also an information void on some of the other Australian gpa manafacturers.
As far as the Coleman Australia connection goes, you may be able to narrow the time period it occurred by gathering some information from the date stamps of the gps's produced and now in collections. I will go through my Coleman Australia collection and PM you the dates on what I have. I know I have a 242B, made in Australia, stamped 1952, and may have something earlier. I would think that the C/A made #4 irons, like the speckled blue and speckled green, would have been made much earlier than that, but don't know if they were date stamped, as I don't have any. They would appear in the mail order catalogues of the day though, which would give the time period.
You would think that if Coleman Canada did form an associated company in Australia, there would have to be some company registration evidence there.
I commend you on your efforts to date in gathering information on this subject.

Keith.  
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Tony Press
CJ Thomas and Coleman had an arrangement, but as far as I've been able to find out so far they were re-sellers of imported Coleman products.



Warren,

I would love to get hold of a pdf of the catalogue. It might help me sort a few things. 

Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Tony Press
One further thing to add:

CJ Thomas had a number of Companies, including "Coleman Quicklite Company of Australia PTY LTD".

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Tony Press
From 1938:

Mr. Charles J. Thomas, a director ofCyclone Fence and Gate Co. PtyLtd.,and Australian representative of Coleman Quick-lite Co. of America, will leave by the Monterey on Monday for an extended tour of America, England, and Europe. He will be accompanied by his daughter.

 

Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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warren
Drop me an email and I'll see what I can do on the PDF.  It was a pretty expensive book but since you are doing research that will benefit us all I'll see if I can get it to you (not sure of the size as it is a big catalog).


ANTIQUESWV on Ebay
#1 in the 223B club
Gatlinburg, TN

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Murff
Couple of interesting ads on this Japanese website:

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/kotobuki134a/16528970.html

Aussie Coleman 1.jpg 

Aussie Coleman 2.jpg 

Murff

Name: Murff   ICCC Member #726 
Coleman Blue's 243's #002   Ebay Handle: Happy-campers2 
ICCC Newsletter Editor & Coleman Addiction Enabler
Quote
Scouterjan
Hi Tony, great to see you post on this forum, you have done some great research so far
Jan
"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Colin_M
Hi All,

Had an email from Warren re my Coleman Thomas Catalogue and its distribution. Contact Warren if interested in it. I consider it a Public Domain document and as such free to whoever wants it.

I did a fair bit of research into who manufactured Coleman in Australia.

The end result was that I was none the wiser, just more junk on my Computer.

Basically there were 3 avenues to follow . Colton Palmer in South Australia, C J Thomas in Melbourne  and Austramax also in Melbourne.

A bit about the Companies

1. Colton Palmer & Preston Ltd.

A large Hardware Distribution with  Manufacturing capabilities at Southwark in SA. Basically imported and redistribution. Did manufacture a range of GPA's

2 C J Thomas.

From what I can find out Distribution Company, seems to be centered around the Camping, Fishing Outdoor Sports. Probably did more but haven't found it.

3 Austramax

Say no more.

The negotiation part of Coleman Canada is a bit of a conundrum.  Both Colton Palmer & C J Thomas claim to have the rights for the Canuk Coleman Manufacture.

It all came around as has been mentioned by increased Tariffs to stimulate the Australian Manufacturing Industries after the War. 2 that is.

On the 18th March 1949 a Mr Walter J Weldon, Export Manager for Coleman Canada arrived in Melbourne, Vic to access the local market due to Tarrifs.

Export Director Canuk.JPG 

All well and good.

Something must have came out of it because on the 29th Sept 1950 Colton Palmer etc announces

 


Coleman Tie Up Colton Palmer.JPG 


On the 1 st March 1954 C J Thomas announces

CJ Thomas Tie Up.jpg   


Unfortunately Colton Palmer etc falls on hard times after going through a major increase in profits and sells their manufacturing Plant.

ale of Colton Factory.JPG 



It appears that Colton Palmer etc couldn't keep up their end of the deal or it fell through to C J Thomas.

Pretty sure that C J Thomas had the distribution rights before all this as 

Coleman Ad.jpg 

As can be seen the add is for 1948.

This is where a bit of speculation comes into play.

With the impending Tarriffs Coleman Canada is loosing an export market. An attempt is made with Colton Palmer etc as they have the manufacturing Plant. The deal falls through with the decline in profits, sell the Plant to keep the shareholders happy.

C J Thomas is the winner.

I am not aware that C J Thomas had a manufacturing plant but there is a continuing rumor that surfaces every time this subject comes up. Coleman Lamps were manufactured in Melbourne under License to Canada. The research evidence does not support this as there is no reference anywhere, but it may be the case.

The Austramax theory is in the same category, no evidence to support or deny the claim.

So after all that I am still none the wiser.

We still don't know who manufactured the Canuk Aussie Colemans.

Speculation will only lead you up the wrong path or creek.

Our only salvation is that " Trove " is continually digitizing newspapers and something may turn up.

Colin

HOW MUCH !!!!!!!!
MilSpecOps #1949
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Vikingson_1
The link below shows some of that C J Thomas catalogue.

http://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/coleman-235-6874201?pid=1287163697
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warren
I've sent Tony the full catalog.   Hope he can continue on Collin's research (and others.)

ANTIQUESWV on Ebay
#1 in the 223B club
Gatlinburg, TN

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Tony Press
Colin and others,

Thanks for your information. It is entirely consistent with what has turned up in my digging, and from collectors over at Classic Camp Stoves and Classic Pressure Lamps.

What would be useful is that collectors of Coleman lamps and lanterns go through their collections for any dates on Australian made Coleman lamps. That would help tie down whether the South Australian factory was the sole manufacturing site.

Best regards

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Tony Press
Having looked at the catalog mentioned by Warren and Colin above it solves two issues for me.

The first is the contents of the catalog indicate quite strongly that the Thomas-Coleman Quicklite alliance had not manufactured Coleman stoves and lamps in Australia up to the time the catalog was published. That leaves Adelaide as the likely place for manufacture at least from 1950 to 1954 when the factory closed down.

The second is that it has given me a model number (336) for this Australian made kerosene Coleman twin burner (fitted with SVEA and Optimus burners):

IMG_8242.jpg

IMG_8240.jpg



Thanks, and cheers

Tony 



 



Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Tony Press
Who Manufactured Coleman Lamps and Stoves in Australia? 

Draft 1.0

Note1: This draft is produced to get feedback and additional information about where and by whom Coleman products were manufactured in Australia. It is produced to stimulate discussion, interest, and more digging. 

Comments are most welcome.

Note2: I’m not claiming credit for this research: most has been discovered before in various places. And it’s a collective effort...

Thanks to Handi Albert, HercL42D, idahostoveguy, Mackburner, Matty, Colin Mills, David Moody, Murff, OMC, snwcmpr, Shagratork, Nils Stephenson, Vikingson1, Warren, z1ulike, and others. If I’ve missed you out, let me know.

I will take responsibility for any mistakes or misrepresentation.

Introduction

The “Coleman Quick-lite Co. of Australia Pty. Ltd” was Australia’s principle distributor of Coleman products. It was the vehicle for an alliance between CJ Thomas and Sons Pty Ltd (owners of Coleman Quick-lite Australia) and “The Coleman Co. Inc. USA”. 

Coleman in the USA had established a factory in Toronto, Canada in 1921. It was through manufacture in this Canadian factory that Coleman were able to take advantage of the lower tariffs on imports available for trade among Commonwealth countries.

A similar company, the “Coleman Quick-lite Co. of the UK” was established in 1921, the same year the Coleman Trade mark was registered in Australia.

In 1949 “Coleman Quick-lite Co. Ltd and CJ Thomas and Sons were [?re-]registered in Australia.

It is unclear to me how long the Coleman-CJ Thomas alliance lasted (up to the 1980s?), before Coleman Australia became the supplier of Coleman products.

In the early 1950s the Coleman Quick-lite Co of Australia had major distribution centres in Sydney Melbourne and Wagga Wagga, and agents in all states of Australia.

Manufacturing of Coleman products in Australia

It is unclear whether Coleman Quick-lite Co of Australia actually manufactured (rather than assembled) Coleman products in Australia, but Coleman stoves and lamps were made in Australia, at least from 1950/1 to ?1959. The evidence for this is, especially, in the Reference Gallery of CPL and at the Coleman Collectors Forum where dated Coleman lamps are seen with the inscription:

“Made in Australia by arrangement with Coleman Lamp and Stove Co. Ltd of Canada, Proprietor of Registered Trade Mark N0.67296-Jan-14-1936”

This inscription is the same wording as found on transfers on (undated) Australian-made Coleman stoves.

The Melbourne newspaper, The Age, reported in early 1950 the Coleman Lamp and Stove Co. Ltd. of Canada announced that it was not going to build a factory in Adelaide (South Australia) because the skilled labour and materials required were in short supply, and the market was too small. 

Later that year The Age reported that "Colton, Palmer and Preston Ltd. of Adelaide, has obtained a tie up with the Coleman Lamp and Stove Co, Ltd., Toronto, Canada, for manufacture of a range of kerosene and petrol-burning appliances for domestic lighting and heating". The key word in this report is “manufacture”, rather than assemble or even “made”.

It appears that the Colton, Palmer and Preston Ltd arrangement was not profitable and the Adelaide factory was sold in 1954 to Fauldings (chemist manufacturers) who took possession of the site in late 1954.

The Coleman arrangement with Colton, Palmer and Preston is, on the face of it, unusual as there was an existing arrangement between Coleman and CJ Thomas and Sons. The only thing that makes much sense is that CPP were manufacturing to supply to the Coleman-Thomas alliance. 
This makes sense of the November 1954 newspaper report that said: 

“C. J. Thomas & Son Pty., Ltd., Australian representatives of the Coleman Co. Incorporated of U.S.A. has moved to new premises at Cato Street, Auburn. Over the last five years C. J Thomas & Son has been maintaining for the Coleman company production facilities in Adelaide. These, are to be co-ordinated in Melbourne. As well as this small appliance field, which includes lighting, cooking, heating, ironing and hot water facilities, C. J. Thomas & Son has been requested to co-ordinate manufacturing in Australia of the larger, heating appliances. With the new expansion plan in mind the new premises have been obtained.”

From this last article we could assume that the Colton, Palmer and Preston arrangement was overseen by CJ Thomas and Sons; that when the Adelaide factory shut down facilities were transferred to Melbourne; and that at least some manufacture was to take place in Melbourne in the Auburn (now Hawthorn) premises of CJ Thomas.

What we don’t know, is what products were made in Adelaide from 1950 to 1954; and what products were made in Melbourne from 1954 onwards and for how long. We also don’t know whether there were any Coleman products being manufactured in Melbourne before 1954 while the Adelaide factory was in operation.

A 1950s Australian Coleman-Thomas catalogue has the words: “Products are manufactured in 5 large factories” (in Canada and USA) and that Coleman products were “ ‘marketed’ in Australia solely by CJ Thomas and Sons”

One word of caution, at least in my mind. The term “Made in Australia” could be ambiguous – used loosely, it could mean assembled in Australia, whereas “manufacture” has a more precise meaning. 

What is needed now
1. Evidence of what Coleman products were manufactured in Adelaide from 1950 to 1954.
2. Evidence of manufacture in Melbourne, where and when (Cato St?).
3. Evidence of manufacture after 1959 and before 1950.
4. Anything else.

Keep digging.

PS. The more i look into this the more I become convinced that Austramax did not manufacture Coleman products - but I may be wrong.

Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Vikingson_1
Hello Tony, that is an interesting and well put together article, Jeff.
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Guff
Good work putting that together, Tony. Keep it comming.

Keith.
Quote
Mike
Hi Tony,

I'm not sure if this helps with anything, but the speckled blue #4A irons are more than just Canadian irons with a different coloured porcelain.

[P3140035_zps2085a752] 

The sole plates are cast with "Made in Australia", whereas the Canadian versions naturally say "Made in Canada". In addition, the through bolts fastening everything together are 1/4" x 20tpi for Australia, and #12 x 24tpi for Canada. Very distinctive.

[P3140026_zps7af1a489] 
[P3140027_zps143bd5e5] 

The top plate has the basic wording as you describe for the lamps.

[P3140022_zps8e340164] 
I'm not sure of the production span for these irons but it does appear in the 1951 catalogue. I would imagine that the soleplates would've been cast in Australia (pricey to ship from Canada,) but at a Coleman facility, or at a contract foundry?

Fascinating research and a great article! Thanks.
My best gal is a Coleman outing pal!
2 1/2 minutes to Midnight...
Quote
Scouterjan
Australian-Coleman_Solus_1_opt__1_.jpg 
"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Scouterjan
Aussie Stove add 001.jpg 
"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Tony Press
Mike,

The stove info is very interesting. Thanks

and thanks, Scouterjan for the adds. I have the Solus one in my files somewhere.

All,

Nils Stephenson over at Classic Pressure Lamps has dug up an 10/60 date for an Aussie 242B. Any advances on 10/60?

Cheers

Tony



Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Guff
Tony. The earliest Made in Australia Coleman lantern I have is a 10/50 249 Scout, but the latest I have is also a 249 Scout dated 12/60. I also have Aussie 242B's and 249 Scout's for years, 51,52, 53, 54, 56,and 58. Hope that helps.

Keith. 
Quote
Tony Press

Keith

Thanks for those dates!

Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Quote
Matty
Colin_M wrote:


I am not aware that C J Thomas had a manufacturing plant but there is a continuing rumor that surfaces every time this subject comes up. Coleman Lamps were manufactured in Melbourne under License to Canada. The research evidence does not support this as there is no reference anywhere, but it may be the case.


Hello Colin, it's good to see you posting. Thanks for your help on the Wizard stuff. I'm having a bit of a hiatus from Wizard but will get back to it once my head has cleared.

In regards to no evidence of manufacturing in Melbourne. I believe there is quite clear evidence they indeed manufactured their lamps at Cato St. I had provided what I consider proof but Tony may have overlooked it or perhaps didn't form the same opinion as I and decided to omit it.

I know a fair bit more of Coleman history prior to C J Thomas. I haven't bothered disclosing it because this is about whom made the lamps in Australia, not the history of Coleman in Australia.

Also, there is a two part history to C J Thomas. I thought I had disclosed that too but I may not have.

What I do know is, Coleman were selling lamps in Australia prior to the Canadian factory.
Quote
Tony Press
Hi Matty and Colin,

Yes, the most likely candidate for Coleman manufacture in Melbourne is Cato St. One of our colleagues is going to try and nail it for certain. 

Matty

On pre-Canadian Coleman's in Australia, has anyone got one in their possession that was sold here?


Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Matty
Tony,

I have in my possession advertising that shows they were sold here from 1917.
Quote
Matty
As I said earlier, a lot of the stuff I know about Coleman in Australia I haven't disclosed because this topic is about whom manufactured Coleman in Australia not the history of Coleman in Australia.

Whenever I think of this topic it always makes me ask myself why, once the Canadian factory was built, was it the Canadian side of Coleman that dealt exclusively with Australia. It was Coleman Canada executives that always visited Australia to look over things and that's where the Coleman products into Australia came from.

The easy answer is to point to the tariff debate. What I don't get is, why not just build a factory in Australia or contract the manufacture of products out in Australia rather than building a factory in Canada then having to transport the products half way around the world to get them here. It seems too fantastic to say Coleman built a factory in Canada to save a few pennies from tariffs.

It must have been quite obvious to Coleman that their products could easily be manufactured in Australia. There were a number of companies doing just that from the the early part of 1900's. I could name companies manufacturing lamps, stoves and irons. I've found companies, long forgotten, that were specialising in one product like stoves or irons.

Again, it makes no sense to me that Coleman built, a purpose built factory 12,000 miles away, to sell their products here.
Quote
Matty
Tony Press wrote:
On pre-Canadian Coleman's in Australia, has anyone got one in their possession that was sold here?


Tony,

I've been contemplating your question.

As you know, I'm no expert and new to lamps. Having said that I'll stick my neck out for the sake of conversation and state the following. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter as the more conversation the closer to the facts we will be.

I would say your question is impossible to answer. There is no way of knowing if a lamp of that era was actually sold in Australia or someone brought one from America in their luggage after a trip to America.

I base my assertions on the fact that Coleman didn't date their products until 1924 and that Coleman Canada didn't start up until 1921.

I can tell you, Coleman were most definitely selling lamps in Australia from at least 1917 which obviously precedes  Coleman Canada and Coleman dating their products.

I would be as bold to say I think it's quite sure, that once Coleman Canada began production, that is where the products into Australia came from. I've shown you the proof that Coleman Canada applied for the stamping trademark in Australia in 1921. The point I'm making is, it was Coleman Canada - not USA.

Another thing I'm contemplating is why do I see exports of Coleman products from Australia to Canada. I'm thinking it may be excess lamps not needed in Australia and or a shortage of lamps in Canada for other markets. Again, it seems very strange to ship lamps to Australia then ship them 12,000 miles back. It doesn't make sense.

You would think they simply would leave the lamps here as they would eventually sell. They would only have to import more lamps at some point - that is, if they weren't being made in Australia [wink]
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Scouterjan
Great topic. I believe Coleman Lamps/Lanterns were made in the UK around the same time
Jan
"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Matty
I forgot to mention that when Coleman Canada got the trademark for the stamping of their products, Coleman USA also got a trademark for the term Air O Lite at the same time.

I find the fact that Coleman Canada and USA were obtaining differing trademarks very interesting. You'd think it would just be one or the other getting the trade marks. That indicates to me that, Coleman USA and Coleman Canada, had a complicated rights relationship outside of North America.

I have been looking for information on Coleman importing glass from England to Australia. At this stage I can't find any evidence of that happening. I know there was a couple of glass makers in Australia in those early days and shortly I will research to see if I can find evidence Coleman had glass made in Australia. I have found an export manifest of glass being exported from Australia to Canada. That doesn't prove that glass was made in Australia. It may of been glass previously imported from Canada.

Again, it makes no sense that they kept importing and exporting the same products to and from North America. There must be underlying reasons and I hope to find them.
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Tony Press
Matty

You are right about being difficult to say it was sold in the US or Australia (pre-Canadian, that is). But sometimes (not very likely, though), something turns up in a box with a sale docket. 

Your sleuthing of Trove to find adverts is also another source. Do you have an identifiable Coleman agent pre Coleman Canada?

As to the arrangement between Coleman USA and Coleman Canada and the UK, we know that that was a way for Coleman to get around the (British) Commonwealth tariff regime which favoured Commonwealth countries at the expense of, eg, the USA. How Coleman USA managed these arrangements is not clear, and from what I gather, there is not much on this aspect in the Coleman archives.


Cheers


Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Quote
Matty
Tony Press wrote:
Do you have an identifiable Coleman agent pre Coleman Canada?

Per sey, no. I haven't spent much time on it. I'm doing this mostly from memory.

I have some agents names from 1917 but it needs further research to find the actual importer. I don't thin k that would be too much trouble. As I said, I didn't get right into it as this was more history of Coleman rather than manufacturing.

I also know whom it was prior to C J Thomas having the reins of Coleman Quicklite of Australia.

In response to your question above I did a quick search and found a fabulous ad from 1918.

Whether or not this bloke actually imported the Colemans will need further research. He does say he is an importer but that doesn't prove he imported the Colemans.

1918

1918.jpg 


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Tony Press
Excellent, Matty. 
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Quote
Scouterjan
Coleman UK adverts 003.jpg 



Coleman UK adverts 004.jpg 


Coleman UK adverts 005.jpg 


these are originals I have. They really don't say they were made in the UK but it gives a good timeline as to when they were for sale in the UK
Jan




"ebgone bahwagh agi" Harvest Gatherer

Mitakiuye Oyasin " All My Relations"
Quote
Matty
Thanks Jan,

I think about why old lanterns, lamps, stoves etc from every manufacturer are so hard to find in Australia. In the end hundreds of thousands of them were sold. In America you have to be careful when walking down the street that you don't trip over a 100 year old lamp. Same in England with certain products.

It is often thought, here in Australia, that you need to see a lamp with a date on it to prove this and that. I think some forget that just because they haven't been found, it doesn't mean they didn't exist.

I can assure you, I know of quite a few manufacturers of various units such as Irons, stoves and lamps that sold by their thousands over many decades. 99.9% of collectors don't know of these Australian manufacturers because none of their stuff has been found - by collectors.

Wizard Light Co, they sold massive amounts of products for 40 years, I repeat, 40 years. Where are all their products? They should be everywhere, like Colemans are in America.

Coleman have been selling lamps in Australia for 100 years. They sold massive amounts of them. Where are they all?

Collectors have Pearl Irons. I'm betting 99% of collectors don't know that Pearl actually made and sold hollow wire systems, much the same as Knight Light and Gloria. Where are they?

I believe I have the answer but it's only my opinion and often my opinions don't count.

I  didn't know of one collector that could say honestly that they knew Austramax made stoves. That was until Mark allowed me to photograph his Austramax stove still in the box. It's still, to my knowledge, the only one known of. They did exist.

In short, because something hasn't been found, like a Kayen box, a Pearl Light, 4 or 5 Wizard Light Co products, Coleman this and that, don't tell me they didn't exist, they did.

I lost interest in this subject for various reasons. I still think there is a very good chance Coleman products were made in Australia from the 30's. As I type this something in the back of my mind niggled away. I think I have proof laying around somewhere that Coleman irons at least, were made in Australia in the 30's.
Quote
Matty
Mike wrote:
Hi Tony,

I'm not sure if this helps with anything, but the speckled blue #4A irons are more than just Canadian irons with a different coloured porcelain.

[P3140035_zps2085a752] 

The sole plates are cast with "Made in Australia", whereas the Canadian versions naturally say "Made in Canada". In addition, the through bolts fastening everything together are 1/4" x 20tpi for Australia, and #12 x 24tpi for Canada. Very distinctive.

[P3140026_zps7af1a489] 
[P3140027_zps143bd5e5] 

The top plate has the basic wording as you describe for the lamps.

[P3140022_zps8e340164] 
I'm not sure of the production span for these irons but it does appear in the 1951 catalogue. I would imagine that the soleplates would've been cast in Australia (pricey to ship from Canada,) but at a Coleman facility, or at a contract foundry?

Fascinating research and a great article! Thanks.


I'm not sure if I'm reading something correctly, so, I'd like others to look at what I'm looking at and tell me what they think.

If, this table, I have taken from another topic is correct, does that mean the above stove iron that was made in Australia, was made prior to 1945? That's how I read it, this iron must have been made in 1945 or prior.

Is that correct?


Coleman Logo Information

before 1913- Hydro Carbon light Co
1913-1925: The Coleman Lamp Company
1925-1928: The Coleman Lamp & Stove Co
1928-1945: The Coleman Lamp and Stove Company
1945- Today: The Coleman Company Inc. 

__________________
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mcdugal2
I think that's the date the Trade Mark was registered if you are referring to the Jan 14, 1936... Not sure where the build date would be located...
Phil Rhoades ICCC# 1125
The Coleman Blue's 243's. #035

"I'm a man, but I can Change, if I have to, I guess." - Red Green
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Matty
Phil,

No, nothing to do with the 1936 date.

The list states that from 1945 to today Coleman has been called The Coleman Company Inc.

The iron has The Coleman Stove and Lamp Co Ltd. It also states it was Made In Australia.

So, if the Coleman Company dating is correct wouldn't that mean the the iron was made prior to the company name change to The Coleman Company Inc in 1945?

If that is correct, that means, the iron was built in Australia prior to 1945.
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mcdugal2
OK, but did Coleman Canada follow the same time frame for changing it's name? Or was it still called The Coleman Lamp & Stove Co. into the 1950s?
Phil Rhoades ICCC# 1125
The Coleman Blue's 243's. #035

"I'm a man, but I can Change, if I have to, I guess." - Red Green
Quote
Matty
Phil,

That is a very important question that has to be answered to help understand the dating in Australia.

Perhaps someone will know the Coleman Canada company names and if and when they changed.
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Tony Press
My 1957 Australian-made Coleman lantern is stamped with "Coleman Lamp and Stove Co. Ltd. Canada :

http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/11654/post/59876/hl//fromsearch/1/

So are the Australian-made Coleman stoves.

Therefore, the Australian-made Coleman products that we can date with certainty after 1950 still carry the older Coleman Company name.

Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Quote
Matty
Tony Press wrote:


So are the Australian-made Coleman stoves.

Therefore, the Australian-made Coleman products that we can date with certainty after 1950 still carry the older Coleman Company name.


So, the Australian made stoves you can date with certainty have dates stamped on them?
Quote
Tony Press
Matty

Not the stoves. The lanterns have the date, but the stoves do not. Some stoves can be approximately dated by their appearance in catalogues, but that is unreliable.

In the Australian context it is even more unreliable because both Coleman Canada and Coleman in Australia used tooling that was no longer being used in the USA - so lanterns and stoves that had gone out of production in the US were still appearing in Australia and Canada as new stoves or lanterns. 

My point in the above post was simply that the stampings on the iron do not necessarily equate to a pre-1950 manufacture in Australia as they are consistent with the stampings on known products after 1950 (made in Adelaide and most likely, Cato St Melbourne).

Cheers

Tony
Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
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Matty
Tony Press wrote:

- so lanterns and stoves that had gone out of production in the US were still appearing in Australia and Canada as new stoves or lanterns.


It's good to clear up the fact that Coleman Canada and Coleman USA made company name changes independent of each other. It seems strikingly odd they would do that but do it they did.

In regards to your above statement. I'd like a bit more clarity please.

Are you saying that stoves and lanterns that were produced in the USA in the 40's and perhaps even the 30's were introduced to Canada and Australia in the 50's as new release models? Those stoves and lanterns hadn't been for sale outside of the US previously?

I know they continued with the 242B in Australia long after it finished in the USA, perhaps 18 years if my memory serves me correctly. I think the 242B was sold in both the US and Australia prior to it going out of production in the US.

What would be helpful to me is, for you to list the models of stoves and lamps that had ceased production in the US but where then released in Australia.

If you could also list other stoves and lamps that were possibly not known in America. So stoves and lanterns that were made solely for the Australian or British markets.

Also, stoves and lamps that were sold in both the US and Australia at the same time.

If you can provide the information it may prove quite useful.


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Tony Press
Relax, Matty - This is not some kind of competition (see the opening of this thread).

What you ask for in your above post, makes no difference to the information contained in this thread so far.

I'm not hiding anything - everything I know has been posted here or on CSS or CPL.

I may have a little bit of information about stove models: I will post tomorrow, when I can get to the shed.

Tony

Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Quote
Matty
Tony Press wrote:
Relax, Matty - This is not some kind of competition (see the opening of this thread).

What you ask for in your above post, makes no difference to the information contained in this thread so far.

I'm not hiding anything - everything I know has been posted here or on CSS or CPL.

I may have a little bit of information about stove models: I will post tomorrow, when I can get to the shed.

Tony



Tony,

I'm truly perplexed by your latest reply.

Relax? What exactly do you mean? Competition, again, what are you on about?

This topic is exactly the same as any of the other topics I ask questions in. I ask questions because I don't know the answers. If I don't ask questions I will never know the answers. I've repeatedly stated that in other topics I've either created or responded to.

If it was a competition, I'd have corrected you on some of your statements you've made here and elsewhere on this topic.

You, of all people, a professional researcher, should understand the more information one has the easier it is to find further information.

Why you think, I think, you are hiding information is beyond me. My questions were simply a follow on from previous questions.

I don't spend a lot of time on this topic. It's more I keep coming back to it because of research I do. I may find something that I'm not positive of what significance the new (to me) information I have found is.

I'll explain the circumstances as to why I returned to this topic, then perhaps you can 'relax'.

I found a stove for sale. The stove has  the Coleman Lamp and Stove Company logo on it. It also has made in Australia on the logo.

It dawned on me that the Coleman Lamp and Stove Company logo was an early company name. I did a search on this forum for the company name and found it had been used only to 1945.

Now, when I see a Made in Australia stove with a logo only used until 1945, it's pertinent to ask questions considering there is the belief that Coleman products were only made in Australia from 1950ish.

By asking the question I did we sorted out that Coleman Canada continued to use the older Company name.

The reason I asked for the models of lanterns and stoves known in Australia is because having those model numbers helps with searches. I may, or may not, be able to build on the data base of known models.

If by getting you or anyone else that knows, to place what known models were either made or imported into Australia here in this topic, I don't have to visit 3 sites (CSS and CPL as you mentioned) to cross reference.

Knowing those models may help determine where and when they were made.

Hopefully, I won't need to explain why I asked a question again.  Once again, just for the record: Because I don't know the answer.


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Guff
"I'm not sure if I'm reading something correctly, so, I'd like others to look at what I'm looking at and tell me what they think.

If, this table, I have taken from another topic is correct, does that mean the above stove iron that was made in Australia, was made prior to 1945? That's how I read it, this iron must have been made in 1945 or prior. 

Is that correct?"


Coleman Logo Information

before 1913- Hydro Carbon light Co
1913-1925: The Coleman Lamp Company
1925-1928: The Coleman Lamp & Stove Co
1928-1945: The Coleman Lamp and Stove Company
1945- Today: The Coleman Company Inc.

Matty. I think the wording of the Coleman Company reference on the Australian made Coleman lanterns and this blue speckled 4A iron is important. Especially the wording " Made in Australia By arrangement with Coleman Lamp & Stove Co Ltd." It may well be that the agreement the Australian manufacturers made with Coleman Canada may have been made well before production finally got underway in Australia. With the stamping,Coleman Lamp & Stove Co. on Australian made lanterns and Mike's 4A iron, that agreement was made prior to 1928, as per your logo information.
 
The earliest known production date,(so far), for the oz made Coleman lanterns is 1950. That is 22 years after the agreement with Coleman Canada. Maybe there was no need to make a new agreement with Coleman Canada as they were happy with the old agreement, and so the old Coleman name was stamped on the item. It may be that simple.

It would be good if you could find evidence of how far back any Australian manufacturers may have been talking to Coleman Canada regarding making their products in Australia. 

Keith.

 
 
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Matty
Keith,

G'day mate,  and thanks for the info.

It is very interesting what you pointed out.

I also think it's interesting that it's been established that Coleman Canada retained the Lamp and Stove name well after the USA dropped it. Does knowing that have any bearing on when and whom made Coleman's in Australia, no. It is still a piece of history I have learnt.

Keith, I have it in the back of my head that I have information that the irons at least were made in Australia from the 30's. I've mentioned that a few times so why don't I look for it you may ask.

I remember a story my father once told me. He was saying that he was at the pub with his mates and he couldn't find his wallet. He felt it must have been lost.

One of his mates said to him, "Have you checked all your pockets?"

My dad reckons he replied with "Yeah, all but one"

His mate then said, "Why haven't you checked that pocket then"

My dad reckons he replied with "'cause I'm scared it's not in there!"

That made me laugh when he told me that over a beer. He reckoned whilst ever he hadn't checked every pocket, the possibility was, the wallet wasn't lost at all!

I suppose I'm a bit like that with the info on the manufacturing of the irons. I may find it and what I thought was good info isn't. [wink]  Laziness plays a part too.

Keith, what do you make of this statement by C J Thomas, representing Coleman Quicklite, at a tariff enquiry in 1930.

C, J. Thomas, of the Coleman QuickLite Coy. (Australia), said his company was purley Australian, but found it was necessary to import several lines from America.
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Matty
The silence id deafening in this topic [smile]

Here is something else for those interested to think about.

Neil just posted a Coleman price list from 1936 from Coleman USA.

In that price list it states the 242B has a retail price of $7.95.

I have seen prices for 242B's in Australia from 1936. I'll call 58 shillings the average price. That is £2/18 0r £2 18 shillings for you youngsters.

According to the Reserve Bank of Australia 58 shillings equates to $5.80  http://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/annualPreDecimal.html

Now, if Colemans weren't made in Australia in 1936 as 99.9% of you blokes believe, how is it possible for Colemans to sell in Australia for such a price?

I am aware that it's probably not an exact science calculating money from bygone eras but if anyone can do it, it's the Reserve Bank of Australia.

Remember, a lantern that retailed in the USA for $7.95 had to be transported from Canada, have hefty tariffs of 30%+ placed on them, then transported around Australia to retailers. I would assume all that transport and tariffs would increase the price by at least double.

Why then, if the lanterns weren't made in Australia were they not priced at £5 + considering all I said above?

If there is a reason, I can't figure it out and I'd certainly would like to be enlightened.
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Guff
Matty. This topic has not died, it's just sleeping at present, for the lack of hard evidence.

There are lots of Coleman 242 series lanterns that have been found in Australia from the early 1930's. I have quite a few, and no doubt other collectors here have as well. They have all been made in Canada or the USA, or at least that is what is stamped on the founts. The earliest one stamped made in Australia that has emerged from Tony's work on this is 1950. There may be earlier ones, but to my knowledge, no one has yet come forward with one. Could Coleman have made ones here earlier than 1950? Sure, quite possible, but where is the hard evidence of an actual lantern or documents, or newspaper articles/advertising, catalogues ect. to prove it.

I suspect that the Coleman irons and stoves may have been made prior to 1950 but those items were not date stamped. Quite possible lanterns were as well, maybe were made here with imported Coleman founts. We just don't know yet, but I'm sure evidence will turn up eventually.

Keith. 
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