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SweetD

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm guessing no, because I can't see a viable way to get any sort of tool into the fount at this position...

20190310_201050.jpg 

It's a brass fount (220C, my Dad's b-day lantern I'm refurbing)...

It's a "sharp" dent, relatively small diameter, and relatively deep...

Any suggestions, or am I SOL with this one?

Thanks!

Dave



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Reply with quote  #2 
You might try one of the hot glue dent pullers like harbor freight has, or something similar.
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Reply with quote  #3 
Maybe try a Schrader valve Coleman fuel cap (sold many places), fill with very hot water and apply air to fount. 

DO NOT EXPECT IT TO BE PERFECT. I would keep it under 100psi. 

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+1 what Chucker said
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Reply with quote  #5 
I'm not sure why hot water. As it cools it will contract. I would be tempted to fill with cold water, leave NO AIR POCKET then warm it in sun. Water will expand as it warms and it HAS to go somewhere.

But, I would not expect miracles, but I would expect improvement.

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Reply with quote  #6 
I dunno.... a dent that 'sharp' isn't going to move easily.....if it were mine, & I was repainting it anyway, I'd sand it down best as I could & use a little body filler, once it's repainted, it would look good as new.  YMMV.
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Get some copper nails and electrical solder.  Clean and tin the nail heads and the dented area.  Sweat solder a nailhead to the dent.  Grab the nail shank with vise grip pliers.  Tap the pliers with a small hammer to pull the dent out.  Solder on more nails if you need to.  Pull the low spots out.  Hold some pulling force on the nails near the crease, and lightly tap the crease down.  It will take several iterations of solder on a nail, pull the low spot up, tap the high spot down.  Whe you like the result, melt the nails off.  Heat the solder area of the tank and wipe it with a cotton rag to get excess solder off.  If you want to get really sexy with it, melt on extra solder to build up the area.  Then file and sand it back to smooth.  That is how auto bodies are fixed using the ancient body solder process.
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Reply with quote  #8 
+1 to what Wynn stated.  Body filler would likely be the easiest and safest.  Although some have pressurized the founts full of water and have had success, success isn't guaranteed and you may create a crack.  I know Coleman does random pressure tests on current steel founts, but don't know what pressure they might have gone to with brass.
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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majicwrench
I'm not sure why hot water. As it cools it will contract. I would be tempted to fill with cold water, leave NO AIR POCKET then warm it in sun. Water will expand as it warms and it HAS to go somewhere.

But, I would not expect miracles, but I would expect improvement.


+1 on that then fill with body filler sand and repeat.

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Here is what could happen with hot water and air, only 30 psi in this one. slant 004.jpg 

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Reply with quote  #11 
The very hot water is a good idea to make the brass more pliable. But it has been suggested to fit a grease nipple to a cap and use a grease gun to slowly bring up the pressure. Much better and slower control over the expansion. I would try to mount it in a homemade clamp similar to a hydraulic press frame with a block between the frame and bottom to keep the fount from "ballooning" the top or pushing the bottom out. I've used a propane torch for heat on a fount with 80 PSI air pressure and it expanded so fast when it started to push out that I lost control and it is now pushed out. Edited for this: put a tight dowel in the pump tube to keep it from collapsing.
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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majicwrench
I'm not sure why hot water. As it cools it will contract. I would be tempted to fill with cold water, leave NO AIR POCKET then warm it in sun. Water will expand as it warms and it HAS to go somewhere.

But, I would not expect miracles, but I would expect improvement.


Hot water warms the brass and makes it easier to return to it’s original formed shape. I’ve done dozens this way to pop the top back up (a lot were 202s and 242s), adding pump pressure or occasionally with an air compressor. Never had one contract when they cool. Did two this afternoon with another member.

It the case of the OP’s lantern, it may help, but I don’t think you will ever get that one out.

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It might be different with lanterns, but anytime bodyfiller is used at least one small hole has to be made for the filler to grip.
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Reply with quote  #14 
Lets respectfully agree to disagree[iconbeer]...if the surface is clean & roughed up with, say 80 grit sandpaper, these modern epoxy fillers should adhere quite well.  Spent 20 years at a Ford dealership, & saw more than a little body filler used over the years.  Just my opinion for what its worth, the last thing I want to do is tromp on some toes....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvz12
Lets respectfully agree to disagree[iconbeer]...if the surface is clean & roughed up with, say 80 grit sandpaper, these modern epoxy fillers should adhere quite well.  Spent 20 years at a Ford dealership, & saw more than a little body filler used over the years.  Just my opinion for what its worth, the last thing I want to do is tromp on some toes....


I’ll do you one better, if you’re ever in Winston Salem NC, I’ll take you by someone who’s been doing body work for 39+ years who’s a master. I’ll even buy your lunch. It might stick for a while. With an anchor port, it’ll never move.
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Reply with quote  #16 
I hope you prove me wrong but I can't see that one coming out way to much stretched metal.
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Reply with quote  #17 
In that exact spot, I wouldn't. There is already work hardening going on at the point where the fuel bung depression is. You run a real risk of cracking the brass. Good luck with however you proceed.
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Reply with quote  #18 
Hot water/cold water.....If you wish to fill font with "Very hot water" and then pressurize, please be careful.
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Reply with quote  #19 
how about the ice/ freezing method. just fill with water and put in the freezer and check it every few minutes. safe as the are no risks of explosions.
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Reply with quote  #20 
Bondo.
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Reply with quote  #21 
Cold water, medium pressure and a small torch. Position the fount so that the dent is on top and just above the water line. Play a small-ish not too intense gas flame over the rim of the dent and most of it should come out. The remaining dent can be filled with lead solder and filed down to match the curve of the fount.
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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scl
how about the ice/ freezing method. just fill with water and put in the freezer and check it every few minutes. safe as the are no risks of explosions.

Agree. Think of a full, soft aluminum beer can left too long in the freezer.  It, (usually), expands nicely and would surely fill in any minor dents in the can.  It just might work with a brass fount.

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Reply with quote  #23 
Too much pressure and/or freezing will bulge out the indentation around the filler cap, which will ruin the fount. Local heating of the dent will relax the brass enough to pop out the dent. Cold water protects the other soft soldered joints on the fount. Hot water has the risk of boiling when you apply a flame to the dent and instantly creating way too much pressure.
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Smudge

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Reply with quote  #24 
I agree with the bondo solution. I would think a dent that sharp and deep, if it did come out, might even look worse. Better yet, and easiest, do nothing, just leave it be.
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Oldbiker

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Reply with quote  #25 
I would go with body filler/ bondo & repaint as well as the last thing you would want to IS render the font useless.
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Reply with quote  #26 
Here' s a novel idea: leave it. All part of the story of the lantern. I have several with dents and they run just fine. I know it's not what you asked, but it is an option/solution.
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SweetD

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Reply with quote  #27 
Wow thanks for all of the replies guys.  If it was any old 220 fount I would maybe risk trying a couple of the ideas suggested.  Since it is a b-day fount, I will likely just leave it as is.  I'm not one to repaint unless it's beyond leaving 'as is' due to rust or whatever.  I'm a big fan of patina...

Just wanted to see if there was a nice trick to pop that sucker out, but I'm not going to risk it on this one.

Thanks, I will share the after pics when I'm done...!

Dave


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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philbotha
Cold water, medium pressure and a small torch. Position the fount so that the dent is on top and just above the water line. Play a small-ish not too intense gas flame over the rim of the dent and most of it should come out. The remaining dent can be filled with lead solder and filed down to match the curve of the fount.


Here's an example of this technique.  In the first picture, the dent is visible under the green tape.  He explains the technique on post #3.

http://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/dent-what-dent-more-after-pics-added-6105705?highlight=dent&pid=1275988110
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Reply with quote  #29 
If you will do a search in the archives for dent removal. You will find several meathods that work. I agree with rubing, having tried removing dents and successfully, that sharp crease at the bottom of the dent will not come out. If you really want it to look nice just fill it with automotive putty and paint over it. It's still a good fount either use it as is or find another fount.
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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecblanks
Here' s a novel idea: leave it. All part of the story of the lantern. I have several with dents and they run just fine. I know it's not what you asked, but it is an option/solution.


Since it is from your pops, I would want to know HOW that dent got there.
if it's a boring story, you can always jazz it up a bit with a "there I was..." story about your dad.[grouch]

lol

I would begin hunting for a same month and year fount in better shape if you want to do a full restore and run her as she is until that time.

just my thoughts

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Reply with quote  #31 
Let me start with, I have never restored a lantern, so have little room to give advice. IMHO, you should leave the dent as is. I’m sure the members of this list can help develop an amazing story around that dent! I think it’s in the shape of a bear’s tooth...
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Reply with quote  #32 
You could always put a bullet hole decal in the dent.
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Reply with quote  #33 
I think you should try to get as much of the dent out as you can. This way you have the opportunity to try out a several techniques and get some experience at it  as you will in time have other founts with dents that you will want to remove. There have been some good ideas mentioned above for dent removal, I think you should try some of them. Also, do a search in the archives for dent removal. There you will find specific stories where dents have been removed and how it was done. This will give you perspective on what you want to do to get the dent out.

Try removing the dent. It does not matter if it's not perfect. The idea is to learn how to remove dents. It can and is done all the time.

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SweetD

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Reply with quote  #34 
Like I said, if this was any fount other than my Dad's b-day lantern fount I would attempt to improve the dent.  But I'm on a somewhat tight schedule to complete this as we are giving it to him when my brother is up for a visit next week from NC.  I don't want to have worst case happen where I ruin the fount and then can't present the lantern in person with my brother when he's here.  I will attempt a dent repair down the road for sure.

Thanks,
Dave


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Reply with quote  #35 
i have found that with regular use my dents become less and less due to the heat and pressure from running it, not gone but way less than before.
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Reply with quote  #36 
I worked for my uncle for a few years doing body work.  He did body work on vehicles for 45+ years.  He never had to drill holes for Bondo to stick.  He did grind the surface to rough it up, after getting as much of the dent(s) out as possible.  Then he used the thinnest coat of Bondo possible to smooth the area.  As to the fount in question, I would not worry about the dent...Its part of the history of the lantern!
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Reply with quote  #37 
I was able to use a large pick/hook set to get a dent out in a similar area. 

https://www.grainger.com/product/2MV15?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_aap5sGT4QIVCFSGCh3WTQQmEAQYAyABEgIAhPD_BwE&cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=EAIaIQobChMI_aap5sGT4QIVCFSGCh3WTQQmEAQYAyABEgIAhPD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!264955915856!!!g!461779184354!
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Reply with quote  #38 
You still have a good fount. If you punch a hole in it now it’s a compromised fount.

Scratch it up with some coarse sandpaper, bondo, sand and paint if you want.

The paint looks very good. Polish it up with Mothers, put it together and run it. I bet you’ll be able to live with the ding. That’s what I’d do.

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Reply with quote  #39 
Leave it alone.  It is brass.  Not every lantern has to be perfect!  Enjoy while you can.  This lantern has a story and it earned that dent.  You will run across another.  

With that said:  One of our members was able to put a piece of wood through the filler cap with the correct arc ( I am thinking he embedded a magnet in it).  On the outside he had the opposing arc.  He took a C clamp and really ground it down, was able to clamp the whole deal pop the dent.  This is close enough to the filler, it is doable.

Take it to a place that repairs brass instruments.  They have the ability to pull out dents in brass, but they paint will probably be completely ruined as they put a ball bearing inside and go back and forth with an electromagnet.

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SweetD

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Reply with quote  #40 
Apprciate the continued input and ideas guys...that being said, if you look back to posts #27 and #34, I'm not going to mess with this fount other than cleaning it up.  Which in fact I have already done.  It's being presented to my Dad, his birthday lantern on Saturday.  Haven't lit the lantern yet, but it's been totally and completely dis-assembled, cleaned and re-assembled, 90% done.  It'll be a nice classic runner:

20190318_172039 (1).jpg 
A preview, I will document the before/after finished product (with money shot) soon...

Cheers,
Dave




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Reply with quote  #41 
After reading all the replies, I think the safest thing is leave as is, that dent is pretty involved. Your dad may or may not bond with a perfect lantern, let him tell the old camping, hunting stories when you guys fire it up again. If it will actually be used, it will be in the dark anyway.
Duane

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Reply with quote  #42 
Wow. Well Keith, now at least you can access the pump more easily. 
Seriously, I would tend to agree with anyone who warned against causing the brass to crack with any effort to push or pull the dent out. They're excellent suggestions as far as actually getting it back out, but you know how that brass loves to fracture. You'd win the battle and lose the war if it does. Filler makes sense.

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
It might be different with lanterns, but anytime bodyfiller is used at least one small hole has to be made for the filler to grip.


It's different for lanterns. either that or you are flat out wrong.

RIMG_6559.jpg  RIMG_6560.jpg  Rreno 2016 061.jpg   


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Reply with quote  #44 
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I’ll do you one better, if you’re ever in Winston Salem NC, I’ll take you by someone who’s been doing body work for 39+ years who’s a master. I’ll even buy your lunch. It might stick for a while. With an anchor port, it’ll never move.


If you need to do that then you are using waaay too much bondo. Sorry. disagree 100%. You can't just fill a smashed fender with 12 cans of bondo. You do the metal work first and then use bondo sparingly. Same thing for lead. It sticks just as well as paint. If you have a newer car the metal is very thin. Just replace the entire panel. That is what they do now. A fender costs less than the labor it would take to just buzz the paint off of it.

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Reply with quote  #45 
I have this brass tank. I was going to leave it as is but tried a few methods. Ended up cracking the brass at the upper left. My thinking is just live with it. I like the bear tooth remark. Mine was a .22 pot shot. It ran well before I fooled with it
Darrell

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...and that’s how that lantern saved your life!
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Reply with quote  #47 
20190322_174810.jpg

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Reply with quote  #48 
Perfect!
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Reply with quote  #49 
That looks nice Dave. I hope that screw has finally made it to you.
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Reply with quote  #50 
The lantern looks like it's running strong and your Dad looks very happy.  That's just what you wanted.
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